A) Seemingly perfect pads, pristine duh.

Someone watching each person continually to check for pad misses, thus requiring 2 judges scrutinizing for EVERY match.

Then, once that's done, account for Pad misses and recalc as if that step counted as an Excellent, but not a Fantastic. This seeming handicap should be experienced equally by bother players, and none at all if the pads are truly pristine.

Use machine score. ITG's works well enough.

Double elimination.

2-3, 3-5 for Finalists.

High seed chooses whether he wants to pick first or second. Both players can use a strategy that way, and you won't always be delegated to second pick as a lower seed.

In case of a tiebraker round (3rd round on normal match, 5th on Finals) Use a random ITG Expert song.

No mods that will disqualify you. (Which means no C-mods in tempo changing or stopping songs.)

That's about it.





B) Similar to A, but slightly different.

Scores should be tallied using the "golf" method, where points are bad news.

Great = 1
Good = 2
Almost = 3
Boo = 4

I think using 1,2,3 and 4 is just easier to keep track off and thus makes mistakes in calculating scores harder making match results more accurate.

Same duel judge pad miss rules.

Recalced pad miss is assigned as a Great, or 1 point.

Finals is a random Heavy song. Unfortunately, this takes away the awesome Oni charts, but this is the best possible choice for selection.

Any mod is fine, as there are no true performance enhancing mods such as No mines or C-mods in tempo changes.

Any matter not stated in DDR rules is the same is ITG rules (such as Normal matches and finals)



C) I don't know enough about IIDX's scoring system, thus I won't even attempt setting rules.

Sweet, thanks for taking this seriously. I'm quite interested in running a tournament sometime far down the road.

More input would be cool!

As you can see, I've thought about helping run a tournament before, that's why I could spit those out like that.
AND I wouldn't have to throw away $10 when I saw you guys, I could just watch for pad misses and bring a calculator.

Easy.

On the issue of Pad Misses: That's fine if they recalculate the score, but I ask that the maximum one can get, for getting a higher score due to a recalc, is 1 scratch. None of the, "I got a Miss but it was Pad so I win diddlydoo" stuff.

No cardsets for any tournaments, I like what they did at DS2, 1 song from X, 1 song from Y, and Random if needed.

Agreed, scratching shouldn't be overly common and should only happen if the match truly was decided by a pad miss recalc, but if that actually determines the match, than a scratch should be in order, thus negating the song just played.

Cool?

Yes, that's fine, but we don't want A LOT of scratching going on and dragging the tournament. There needs to be proof that it was the Pad's fault (like you said earlier, 2 judges watching the match), so there aren't long stalling periods of time.

i remember mike getting a pad miss at ds2...I SAW IT ALL!!! Kevin i am so ther at your tourny....and lol at wes....i had actually hadnt played Dawn in like 3 months....no joke....totaly forgot the run's after the hands lol

For DDR, 2/1/0/-1/-2 (and 2 for freezes) [this is the same as Tyr's 0/1/2/3/4], was seemed to work well in the past, although Perfects + Freezes (Sakuracon scoring) both works well and reduces the need for recalcs.  P + F actually wouldn't be bad in a normal tournament these days, since it's pretty doubtful that there will be combo breaking except for machine errors, and those would be a 1 point loss instead of a 3 or 4 point loss, greatly reducing the need for recalcs.  Random Oni actually makes for more interesting tiebreakers than Random Heavy, since quite a few of the very few the charts are decently hard to PA, whereas Random Heavy seems to lead to 5-6 foot charts pretty consistently (on Extreme at least).  Recalcs should only give scratches and should only be done if there's reason to assume the pad gave an error (someone saw it, the sensor is clearly weak, the light clearly has been only for the last 5 minutes, we're somehow having a tourney at Gameworks).  2 judges would be nice for ending disputes, but it's a bit excessive and it's already a bit cramped without two people needing a clear line of sight to the machine, demonstrating a pad issue should be enough.  And whether or not it'll change the outcome of a round, players should be reporting errors whenever encountered to prevent later recalcs.

For ITG, machine score, recalcs as above, etc.  Higher seed getting choice of side or choice of play order was a nice strategy element at DS2, I liked that.  Jon's Sakuracon mod-rule (use anything that doesn't DQ) is a nice thing to have in there, since opting to play Random (or even Blender) can be a useful strategy for certain charts and it gets rid of whining about not playing Mini from the few people who would whine about that (which is current no one at our tourneys, but at least it'd be there).  r21 use would be a nice addition, but I'd prefer sightreads over a songpack (bit harder to orchestrate, since somebody has to make the charts).  Probably just submit file for judging and not allow players to use their own submissions.  Multiple judges would be preferable to one and we need a definite restriction of negative BPM use so something like Sushi-go-round doesn't almost slip in again.

For IIDX, the 2 song cumulative score vs. the whole group still in the tournament worked decently.  I don't see brackets working that well with the skill gaps and huge changes in players' relative skill as you increase difficulty, plus there's difficulty of setting up head to head play (impossible to have fair matches on AC since so few play right scratch, need widescreen for CS to not ruin the note dimensions).  I'd like player chosen songs over song cards, probably have high rank and low rank each pick a chart, but have a difficulty restriction and restrict it to a given style each round somehow (mid-seed draws a style out of a hat?).  And either no [a]'s or use HS ratings with estimates for charts that haven't been rerated to stay within difficulty bounds, since Taito no Suika [a] or Mr. T Take Me Higher [a] would be great to have in a 4*-5* round.  Starting with a 3-5 range and working up to 7+ or 8+ by the finals seems like a decent difficulty progression... going from 5's to 3's, moving up to 5's again, going to easy 7's, and then jumping to player chosen (High [a] and Satellite020712 7k) charts at Sakuracon was a bit awkward (the drop to 3's did the most damage).

I actually favor a 2/1/0/0/-2 scale for DDR (or 5/4/2/0/0/-5 for ITG), but boo/wayoffs are so uncommon that I guess it wouldn't matter much anyways.

for IIDX, i want another double play surprise

Because it's just THAT fair if your side has only one working sensor per arrow and the other side has great sensors all around.

For DDR, I definitely think straight-up perfect (+freeze) attack would work great.  Instead of feeling like everything's over because you got a miss, having anything non-Perfect at just -1 point would feel much more fair.  Or perhaps a 2/1/0/0/0 scale, ala IIDX or SuperNOVA machine score.  I REALLY hate how quickly everything can be over if you just have one brain fart and get a miss.

ITG, I think straight-up machine percentage is good, and any mods that don't DQ your score are allowed.  Dedicabs (the only way ITG should be played) have great sensors, and the penalty for missing steps is not near as harsh as DDR.

IIDX: Go by EX score, regardless of pass/fail status.  Every person playing the same set of songs individually is the best way.  HS/towel/sudden+ allowed, but not mods that disqualify scores (Auto-Scratch, S-Random, etc.).  Shuffle probably shouldn't be allowed either, since there are some charts that it makes a lot easier, and someone shouldn't get booted out of the tournament just because a random number generator screwed them over.

@IIDX rules:

If I banned random, I would also probably ban Kakumei (7k and a), simply because it's purely scales and almost everyone plays it with random. Being able to play one bullshit chart does not equate to IIDX skill.

Banning Random should not be an option. If someone loses because they got a bad Random, it's their fault for using it.

True, but on songs where everyone would use it (i.e. Kakumei), it would basically come down to pure luck.

hello.
That's why I also advocate switching sides during a match.  I guess I should have snuck that in there.

Banning certain mods is fine, as long as it doesn't target things unfairly:
examples:
banning random but not mirror in IIDX
banning any speed mods higher than/ lower than x on DDR/ITG

What else... progressive difficulty is something dukamok takes issue with.  I think it's fine, as long as we maintain double elimination formats.  That way, if as dukamok says "someone loses because he can't quad star a 9," they can come back and win on the 11s and 12s that are later allowed.  If it's single elim though I think a free for all is a better idea.  Just to clarify, I don't think either idea is particularly better in a double elim setting.

Also tada> no, you're almost completely wrong.  A defining factor of a good player in IIDX is the ability to do well on any random.  Players don't quit out on bad randoms until they get one that's good.  They play through bad randoms so that they can demolish the good ones.  If someone gets a really good random, sure, they were lucky.  Bad randoms though... that's like every random.

Didn't somewhere you say you quit out on Bad Randoms and wait for a good one? Asking.

I hate to say it, but i'm not a fan of progressive difficulty either. As many have said before, a sign of a good dancing game player is the ability to do good no matter the difficulty of the song. This can also apply to IIDX.

Only if I'm trying to do something specific like AAA a song that I can only AAA on a lucky random or FC a song, in which case I'd quit when I uh, break combo.  usually I just play through randoms.

Also, just to play the devil's advocate, a sign of a good dancing game player is to be able to beat opponents on easy songs as well... :p

Playing in a tourney and playing by yourself are two completely different situations.  When you're playing by yourself, you can reroll the chart as many times as you want, but in a tourney, you only have one try.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say, but what I'm trying to say is that that is the exact reason why it will define who is a better player.  Hell, if you are afraid of bad randoms, just play the normal chart.

Luck does not define the better player.  Considering we only get one playthrough, things will come down to luck on songs where everyone will want to play Random (i.e. Kakumei); charts where a vast majority of IIDX players agree makes that Random makes the chart more favorable.  Whether the Random lets you get +2 EX or +200 EX higher than you would on the original chart all comes down to the luck of the Random, though.  Not all Randoms are created equal.  If there was some way to make everyone play the same Random chart, that would be perfectly fair in my mind.  But everyone will be playing different Random charts, with different degrees of quality.

On most songs, I'd just play the normal chart, but there are some where basically everyone will use Random, and things come down to the quality of the Random.

In my sentence, I implied the easier songs as well as hard songs

Back to IIDX, playing the chart Non-Random isn't always a bad thing, tada, you're just thinking of the most obvious song.

no, see, you don't understand what I'm saying.  I'm saying that if you're a good player, there is hardly a distinction among bad through good randoms.  There are so few REALLY good and REALLY bad randoms that make a difference, that 99% of the time, the better player will get a better score no matter what random.  Kakumei random is pretty much the same technical difficulty on any random unless you are really unfortunate and the scales don't break.  

To be honest with you, on the vast majority of songs, the vast majority of randoms are harder than the normal chart.  That's why it should be allowed.

Ok, I've pretty much decided that I'm going to either run a DDREX tech tourney or a IIDX CS (or maybe 8th, but I'm not sure Bill would trust me enough, or for that matter whether anyone really wants an 8th tourney) tech tourney.

Info on those two specifically now would be better.
Again, thanks for all the input! It's always good to hear from players that are more experienced and participate in most tournaments.

There's no reason to bar the use of Random/Mirror, because as James said, if you're willing to use random in a tourney situation, you are probably skilled enough that it won't matter, or it's a chart where everyone will want random.  If we do have a non-random tourney, I'll gladly pick Kakumei 7k/[a] against the people who don't want random since even in an extreme case like that, it barely makes a difference in my score/pass rate (well, actually, I can only pass Kakumei [a] without random).  Now Random+Mirror is a whole different story...  

I'd add in use of effectors, because that's down to a preference audio adjustment and echo/surround do actually emphasize parts of the music a bit differently to the point that it can help or hurt if you pick certain ones.

Sudden/S+/Towel seem to have no arguments against them in the thread, so I'm happy with that.