I wonder how long it'll take for someone to put ITG on a DDRX dedicab.  Those things look awesome.

SN's syncing is probably quite a bit better than Extreme's overall, and the song selection, mods, and scoring are exactly the same.

X has more flaws than I can shake a dick at.  These range from the horrific scoring system, to the horrible layout and appearance, to the absolutely idiotic new cabinets.  It's like they're asking Arcade owners not to buy them.  Sure, they'd look cool in your living room, but they look like they weight at least 700 pounds, and that's without the pads.  Add 350 pounds per pad and you're looking at an arcade machine that weighs more than most pianos.

Seriously, SuperNOVA's a pretty decent mix next to DDR X.  Hell, DDR USA is a pretty decent mix next to DDR X.

You haven't played DDR X.

What's wrong with the scoring system? It has marvelous timing and that's all I give a shit about. If I can PFC something, I'll count it as a AAA.
The layout's subjective, I don't really like it either.
The new cabinets are pretty bulky but I'm sure DDRX upgrades are being offered too.

And don't front like SN wasn't one of the worst cases of botched syncing ever to happen to 4-panel. Pre-patch was bad and post-patch is mostly late. I'm not saying Extreme is necessarily better, but SN2 is a step up and I bet X will be too.

Also:

The cabinet is the same size if you don't include the light fixture.  It just has a widescreen monitor.

Lights were removed.  Konami also decided that we're only allowed to have SD cards for edits instead of USB, which is already being used in Asian countries.

Also, I think the cabinets look rather nice...

You are talking out of your ass so much in this post it's not funny.

EX's syncing is pretty good as a whole.

Edit: It's pretty funny that the worst synced song in Extreme is pretty much the only song that is perfectly on in SN unpatched?
As far as syncing goes: MAX-> EX-> 5th-> 4th Plus-> MAX2-> 3rd-> SN <-> Solo. I can't speak for SN2, 1st, 2nd, 3rd Korean, 4th or X. I will go out of my way and make an offhand assumption that 1st and 2nd do not have the best syncing.

Extreme syncing is OK. Supernova syncing is not so OK. SN2 syncing is OK.

Tofu I hate to sound elitist but really? really? Is SN syncing really that good? How many AAAs do you have on SN? How many do you have on Extreme? Compare the numbers; I'm sure you'll see what I'm getting at. SN syncing is NOT better than Extreme.

The scoring formula used for SN2 and X is unnecessarily complex and fails to provide an ample representation of actual performance comparatively.  Look up the formula.  If you even understand it, then we can talk.

I've played the homeversion of X for about 10 minutes.  It has a handful of okay songs, a few really good songs, the obvious updates everyone knows about (ie. shaded background), but everything else is a step down.  Maybe it was just the display, but the syncing was horrific.  220ms+.

The new cabinet display should be a step in the right direction.

KDDR, I've played SuperNOVA at the arcade six times.  Every time I have been able to consistently SDG songs just as well I have been able to during the 200 or so times I've played Extreme.  I have one heavy AAA, and that was honestly a fluke, so counting AAA's seems a little arbitrary.  SuperNOVA's syncing doesn't break the game; if people can't adjust to it, then that's honestly they're problem, since it's pretty clear (to me at least) that it doesn't really inhibit much.  Try great-attacking some time.  It will teach you to play off-sync.

I'm not even trying to say SN's a good mix here guys.  I'm just saying it's better than DDR X, from what I can tell.  I don't see how you are all becoming so offended by that.


EDIT: The cabinets look fantastic.  But looks aren't practical when a game becomes a niche market.

Charlie, I think it's more the fact that you're trying to criticize a game before you play it, and now comparing your experience on a home version to that of an arcade version.

Also I fail to see how anything other than perfect/great count is necessary for calculating score. The numbers at the bottom don't mean shit.

Also you are fat and gay. 

Okay, I may not have very good timing, but I can at least tell when there's 220ms+ of lag.  Where you playing on an HDTV w/o a game mode or something?

I played on an unpatched SN in the arcade before and could tell the timing was off.  I later played on a bunch of patched SNs and the timing always seemed a little different, but not off sync. I think it was more to do with how much visible space SN/ITG/PIU have versus Max/Max2/Extreme have

We've talked about SN2 scoring before and I still don't understand what your problem is with it. I was most partial to SN1 scoring just because it was EX score, though

Give me a link to the X scoring system.

Tell me how you figured the lag was around a 4th a second.

The exact figure of 220+ ms seems like a figure you... pulled out of your ass.

Patched SN or unpatched SN. And SN's syncing does break the game. I can think of so many people who haven't bothered with the game because they like EX's timing. Not everyone wants to re-learn a game just in order to play what is universally considered a shitty mix. Why do you tell people to great attack? Are you a great GA-er? Are you a great PA-er? I'm not going to take advice from someone who isn't as good as me. You're telling people better than you to play the game a different way. You should stick with arguing points that won't make you come off as trying to sound elitist. Elitism doesn't work unless you're top tier.

I'm offended by your reasoning. Don't even TRY to tell me "jk i wuz trollin lozl" because that's not your style. You're trying to continue a serious discussion with haphazard logic and no empirical evidence to back up any of your numerical figures.

And lastly, DDR is not a niche market game, it has been attempting mainstream, and is getting better and better at it. Recognizable songs and a logical interface have done a lot towards this goal. The game is much more accessable. Tell me how it has become more of a niche game. I think previous games comprised of mainly Eurodance and Electronic music licenses are much less accessable in the west.

I'm not even trying to be an ass here. If you want people to take you seriously by any bit you should at least take heed to some of this post.

Ethan, this topic isn't exclusively about the Arcade version.  If it was, I wouldn't be criticizing anything about it other than the cabinet design.

I like the fact that Marvs are now standard--that's something I really like--but you know how it displays a score and a grade?  Those now mean NOTHING.  The score for SuperNOVA was a percentage, disguised as a number out of 10,000,000 (100,000,000?).  It represented a calculation of your EX score--a system that has worked for years, and is used in many DDR tournaments.  In SN2 and X, this system no longer represents your EX score.  I can't find the algorithm anywhere, but it's pretty worthless as a scoring mechanism.

You know I'm fat and gay; stop being jealous.


Schlagwerk:
It was on an HDTV, which may have contributed all or most of the lag.  I just remember that it was really easy to Good Attack.

I honestly don't have that much of an issue with the scoring system, besides the fact that they had EX scoring for a while, then they tossed it for the new one.


Iori:
I can't find a link to the scoring system, but why don't you look it up yourself before trying to argue that it makes more sense than the grading system used for everything up to Extreme, or an EX system.

There are a lot of things I don't know, but rhythm and timing isn't one of them.  I was hitting the panels about one demisemiquaver prior to one quaver prior to the beat at 140 bpm.  Here's the math for you:
60s/140bpm = .42857 seconds per beat.
1 quaver = 1/2 beat
1 demisemiquaver = 1/8 beat
=5/8 beat
5/8 * .42857 = .26786
I'm pretty sure that qualifies as 220ms+.  Sorry about being off by 48 milliseconds.  That's a whole 24% margin of error--how incriminating.

I tell people to great attack for the same reason you tell people to Marv Attack.  It improves timing.  I'm not saying "Great Attack or you're not good at DDR."  I'm saying "Great Attacking will improve you ability to adjust to unfamiliar syncing."  Consider how many offsync songs are on Extreme--on every mix of DDR--and tell me that it's not a good idea to improve one's ability to adjust to unfamiliar syncing.
Also, both unpatched and patched.
And just because...
I consider myself a great GAer, a good PAer, a poor GdAer, and a perfect Miss-Attacker. ;P

You're assuming I have no evidence for figures I can back up readily--whereas you have no evidence to back your arguments--your arguments are purely negative.

DDR is a niche market.  It's not a popular game with wide appeal.  I don't know what drugs you were on when you said that, but I know you know how much the popularity of DDR has dwindled.  DDR used to appeal strongly to audiences that were interested in it.  Now it does not.  You can't call a steak green and expect a vegan to buy it.

You said you had an idea of what the formula was. That's a hit to your credibility. Your post made it seem like you knew what it was, or that you had the skills to decipher it and not me.


You can't tell me all of your steps can be predicted in this formula. You shouldn't try to invent math into a situation where it isn't called for. The only real way to calculate lag would be to compare the video VS audio output, or video vs identical video on another screen. So your formula is psuedoscientific without actually being able to test it. The terminology you used is silly, but I'm not going to give a strike against you for that. And plus you made that formula after the fact of the assumption of 220+ ms. That alone is a strike to your credibility because you threw out an unfounded figure.

Yes, I'm very pragmatic and cautious in this case. I'm just trying to prove how silly your arguments are. The two things at the beginning are still (with a technicality) unanswered. Notice how I don't bring statistics into my arguments. I try not to argue about things I could be wrong about unless I'm flat out trolling.

You're only considering the hardcore crowd. Rhythm games as a whole have gotten much more widestream acceptance, no small thanks to GH. Only the most hardcore have moved away from DDR. DDR has the most name recognition in the states (in terms of dancing games, in case you need that disclaimer). You cannot argue that. I challenge you to ask 50 random people what DDR is. I think some of them will know what it is. I can't speak for the casual audience, but I imagine that they don't have the reasons NOT to play DDR that hardcore players do.

*sigh*
Whatever, here:
X = total number of steps in the song
a = X/1,000,000
So, y is what a marvellous or OK is worth.
A perfect gives you Y-10 points.  This means that if you have a full perfect combo, you pretty much definitely have a AAA.
Aaaaaand guess what.  It turns out that the scoring algorithm I found when I last looked this up was wrong.  A great is worth half of a perfect.

So, the system is only a tiny flop away from EX--it just makes it really complicated.

So there's that.  Now that I have this algorithm sitting in front of me, and actually making sense (the other algorithm I found had a very different figure for greats, which didn't make sense at all), the scoring system isn't anywhere near as broken as I've been claiming--it's pretty much EX, but with Marvs giving you a slightly higher grade than perfects.  Why they didn't just have M=11, P=10, G=5 is beyond me, but whatever...the point is that I was wrong on this--SN2 and DDR X have a functional scoring system.
Happy?


I've been playing music for 11 years.  I've been playing music passionately for 7 and a half years.  I can recognize audio lag as a fraction of a beat.  I don't seen how you can claim that my calculation there was flawed--the only difference between it and the 220ms figure was that the first figure was an informed estimate of the same final figure that the math yielded.  The math did show a slightly different figure, but it was still based on the same mathematical basis: 5/8*60/140.  Just because I didn't go ahead and actually punch in the exact figure doesn't mean that it's suddenly out of my ass.


I argue using statistics, mathematics, and logic.  When I'm just talking with friends about something as inconsequential as a video game that none of us will bother to spend more than a few dollars on, I don't worry too much about being precise or citing sources.  I'm not here to get a job, or support my future--I was presenting my position in regards to a video game, casually.  I still fail to understand why you find it necessary to build or maintain "street cred" on a site with less than 200 registered users, which doesn't strongly represent any kind of economic, social, or academic investment.


I'm really not.  Sure, people like to play DDR still, but that's not what Konami should be thinking about.  Konami should be concerned with who wants to pay money for DDR.  They should be reducing the cost to build and ship a cabinet, while maintaining appeal.  Look at the newer PIU cabinets.  They're tiny compared to DDR X cabinets, yet they have all the same features, and I consider them far more attractive.

Okay, you conceded a couple of points by not responding to my answers, now for the rest.

Let's face the fact: you have a history of making up figures. I'm can't automatically give you a pass on such a rediculously percise number. How can I be sure you didn't initially pull the figure out of your ass. I don't care if the math is correct. I'm just saying you are making shit up as you go. That's a pretty fair assumption. Even if you did take the time or thought to calculate lag while you were there (which I doubt, you do ballpark figures), I really can't trust that. I can trust you on other shit, but this doesn't smell like you researched first.

Basing logic on statistics you pull out of your ass isn't solid logic. You simply got lucky here. I can think of numerous instances where it has gotten you into trouble. If you want me to back this up by quoting you I certainly can, but I don't think we need to do that. It's unfortunate that me pointing this stuff out hasn't changed your attitude towards unfounded fact. You don't even need to seek credibility. It will improve all of your relationships by not spouting random numbers / facts.

Okay, now to some buisness points. Why should Konami cater to a hardcore crowd that has already moved onto other games? They make money with imperfect products. And I'm not even going to get into about how much casual vs hardcore players contribute to how much money a game makes. I've beaten that point to death in other threads.

Attractive is also subjective, and I imagine marketers who are much more qualified than you or I are figuring out what is appealing or not. Even if they aren't so qualified or even if the design isn't that great, the product sells. Konami embodies "If it ain't broke, don't fix it".

I do pull a lot of numbers out of the blue, but if you check them, they're typically fairly accurate, except for those which are miscalculated or when there is a misinterpretation.  I skim data, and I go through a lot of data.  I think you're underestimating the amount of information I passively absorb.  Sure, I often have trouble backing up my figures, but I've displayed that I usually can, so does it really matter?  I can only think of one time I've ever been completely and utterly wrong on a figure I came up with, and that wasn't because of lacking research--it was because of cataclysmic weather complications.  And really, the numbers you're referring to don't need to be anything more than ballpark figures.  If I were a marketing expert or stock advisor, I'd be a little more anal, but otherwise, a fairly large margin of error is pretty tolerable.

As for business, you're still not understanding.  Konami doesn't care about hardcore players, and everyone knows that.  It's the arcade owners they're concerned about in this case though--the players mean fairly little to them.  Each machine sold makes a fairly huge profit for Konami compared to homeversion sales--if Konami sold 3000 brand new DDR X cabinets, they'd be making bank--that's 30 million dollars in revenue on a pretty much dead product.  It would take 750,000 copies of the homeversion to bring in that much.  In the era of Extreme, homeversions were everything because individuals actually wanted to buy them.  Now, the market's back to homeversions.  If the DDR X cabinet appealed to arcade owners as much as DDR Extreme did four (five?  how long has it been now?) years ago, it would be a major source of income for Konami.  In a time when the economy is weak, the console versions aren't in demand, and property expenses are high, it's smart to tone the cabinet down, not to bulk it up.  Sure, they make a revenue off of it, but revenue isn't the same as profit.  Licenses are expensive.  Salaries are expensive.  Konami's throwing away money here no matter how you look at it.  This hurts Konami, it hurts fans, it hurts investors, and it hurts the economy.

I would get out and play DDR regularly again if there was a working DDR X cab in Portland.

Over 6 years ago, believe it or not.


Isn't that the philosophy that got Ford, GM, and Chrysler into such a financial clusterf*ck? Innovation and progress should not be thrown out as "useless" just because the average person is unwilling to back it at that time. Many foreign car manufacturers have proven this point with superior sales world-wide to US manufacturers. Why? Because they invested in innovation and progress. Something I feel that Konami abandoned years ago in this genre.

I think you are being far too optimistic about your own abilities here. You generally assume you are correct. Even within this thread you have made quite a few asssumptions that are flat out wrong.

Keep in mind much of their sales is upgrade kits. With Extreme far more upgrade kits were made than actual Extreme machines. Extreme wasn't even that appealing to arcade owners. It did not sell well. Anything after 5th didn't sell that well. By the time Max 2 came out, DDR was well on its way out in Japan. THe reason Konami started releasing AC mixes again is because they are selling. The reason they STOPPED releasing them is because sales tapered off around Max. Again, you make an assumption based on the number of Extreme machines you see. A ton of them are bootlegs as well. Even more are not Extreme cabs, but upgrades. You cannot say they are throwing away money. Even if it did lose money, considering the number of IP's that Konami has under their wing, it is not hurting them much, if any.

Suko and Tofu: lol at saying DDR IS HURTING THE ECONOMY. Greed is as ancient as man. The banking and credit industry's greed is on a whole different scale. It's a big world, and DDR is not even relavent in the global economy. Get over yourselves.

Have you ever been bitten by a flea?
Did it kill you?

Have you ever seen a cat die after being bit by 1,000 fleas in a matter of a few seconds?

Your attitude is the same attitude that causes depressions, general fiscal negligence, bankruptcy, and irrational bi-partisan politics.


I challenge you to back up that sales data.

Okay, first part of your post is existential bullshit.

2nd part. I never even posted sales data! I never gave a number! All of my points revolved around these facts:

1) Konami has other franchises which do make money.
2) Companies DO NOT make something when it DOES NOT make money.
3) Companies DO make something when it DOES make money.

Demand side economics is simple. I never took my point much further because anything NOT justifiable by the above would require me to research, which I really don't feel like doing. My points still stand.

We're beginning to deviate so far from the original topic of DDR X. I'm done with this topic. There's nothing more to be said about this whole thing.

I have to say, I'm with Iori on this one. I'm a long time ddr player that quit playing a couple years ago. I've been going to GameWorks recently getting back into a little. I saw the DDR SN (I didnt even know about it until I saw it there), and just from the look of it I new it sucked. I didn't even play it for the first couple of weeks, I was perfectly content playing EX. I finally tried it out last week, holy shit was I right. I couldn't help thinking how SN was an Extreme with terrible sync and more shitty songs. I will not be be playing SN again, or at least not anytime soon.  Also, the whole try Great attacking thing is not cool. Dancing off beat to a simple song like sync (heavy) is so not what I want to be concerned with. I think if GA is easier than PA, something is seriously wrong with the game.

I love quote rebutles.



Where did I say it was hurting the economy? I was referring to Konami's business plan taking them down the same mediocre path Ford started down in the 60s. It doesn't apply to all their games, but they are slowly but steadily eroding their dancing game fanbase with these progressively lame releases of DDR.



Bubonic Plague



Again, go talk to Ford, GM, Chrysler, Pan Am, TWA,  about this concept. Apparently it's news to them. Don't assume corporations are infallible and know how to make money better than their consumers. The history books are littered with hugely successful corporations that were rolling in cash but couldn't evolve to keep up with market conditions.



I may be have misunderstood Iori's argument, but I had the impression that he was defending Konami for producing a sub-par series of games, because Konami gains a profit from the home ports of these games.

My argument is that a company should try to make a profit, but if this quest for profit hinders the development and evolution of a superior product, that is were I call BS.

Anyways, back on topic... I think DDR X is actually a step in the right direction, moreso then Supernova and SN2.   Theres a good mix of KOs and licenses, especially now that the Wii game crossovers are happening.

I don't know if any of you guys have checked them out, but the X-Special charts have been getting unlocked too.

Dance Dance Revolution

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTTsBWaTK2c

Legend of Max

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avLaO1roNIE

Maxx Unlimited

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YFJNQeW3dc

Candy Star

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-ZD-wxmxkY

MAX 300

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZDEJ-MXHgE

Healing Vision

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bF2NpEAEICo

Paranoia Eternal

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JnSOiMwoKU

Paranoia Dirty Mix

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HitBHidCcg

Trip Machine Jungle Mix

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Xdcn2WdQtM

The only thing the game could have used would have been maybe a couple more crossovers, but other then that, it seems like a good mix, even with all the songs they removed from the game.