Ok, curiosity compells me.  I'm seeing alot of mention of the phrases 'stamina players' vs 'timing players'.  Is this implying that a decent portion of the player base falls into ONLY one of these two categorizations, in that players that can quad 9-10s AND *** 13+ songs are few and far between?

It kind of seems like a moot point in the end.  As both the stamina player AND the timing player is going to inevitably lose the tournament to the player that's a mixture of both, which looking around the forums suggests there already are some within the community.  I've met a total of two players *Little Matt and BBQ* that were complete monsters at anything under 11s and the only safe strategy of beating them was picking harder 12s and 13s...and they both got better and got over that, Little Matt especially >.>.  If I guy that can flail through 13s and barely *'s 9s plays against someone that can't pass 13s but ***'s 9s, the odds are always in the timing guy's favor in a best of 3, 3rd song random type tournament due to there being more 9/10s than anything else.

Also, being a dick with your picks when your opponent can't pass it is a matter of opinion.  Using Hollie's example with Flaire, I wouldn't consider Utopia anything near a stamina song and moreso a warmup.  Like, especially when I've been in rounds where I 'know' i'll win whatever it is I pick, I usually choose to warm up with something for the later rounds with like... hxc symphony or July or insert-name-songthatisn'taneasy9.  Depending on ones level, that's either a dick move and they hope I tire myself out, or it's a legit warmup and even if my opponent sits out the song and gets a swedish massage while I finish it alone....i'm still going to beat them at whatever they pick.

You can't please everyone.  And giving too many advantages to players that don't have the skill to compete with others kind of takes away the whole point of becomming a better player.

The "Timing" VS "Stamina" dichotomy has come up only in the context of the "second-tier" players. The players that can quad 9s and 10s and triple 13s are not as common as the "second tier" players are, but they absolutely exist and, if you'll notice, our tournament has two divisions - an "expert" division for those people to enter, and a "standard" division so the "second-tier" players, usually held back by either poor timing or poor stamina, can compete against one another instead of just inevitably losing to the well rounded players who are pro at both. It's kind of like how back when DDR was still fairly young, DDR tournaments would have two divisions - one where players competed on trick/standard and one where better players competed on heavy/maniac.

The reason we're writing "don't be a dick" and similar into the ruleset of the second-tier tournament is that we want to make sure stamina players with shitty timing and timing players with shitty stamina are equally capable of winning the tournament, since the purpose of this "standard" division is for people of roughly equivalent overall skill level but with different specialties to compete with each other in a fair way (as you said, if they didn't have different specialties they'd be in the Expert tournament because they're good at everything.)

I think the players around here are motivated to improve and become more competitive when they have peers to improve and compete with.  Our tournament scene has been kind of shitty for awhile, largely because of the huge skill gap between the "upper level" players and everyone else, who all want to compete with one another but don't want to pay a five to fifteen dollar entry fee knowing exactly who will win it ahead of time.  In the last week since talk of a standard division started, I've seen almost everybody practicing harder than I've ever seen before, which is just further evidence that it's an idea whose time has come again.

I think overall this is a pretty positive thing and I'm glad that everyone is on board with trying to make a good tournament : )
I think it's amazing that we have enough people interested to actually have two divisions.

To NekoSempai: Maybe that was a bad example, but I forgot to mention that, at the time, I couldn't really pass 12's. Also, this is sort of like what Laura was saying about the difference between people who are good at stamina or timing versus those who are good at both. My problem was that Flaire obviously didn't *need* to pick anything hard against me as he knew he was better. I didn't belong in the same tier as him in that tournament, but it was the only option.

     I basically agree with Laura's last few posts. Though, Laura and Suko, I do not by any means wish to deter you from entering. Far from it, I think you guys would make great competitors because you have such good timing compared to these newer players and have a wealth of experience and commanding dance-games presence that would be great for the players we seek to make more active in the community.


     Suko, I apologize for being kinda a dick in my earlier post, I didn't intend to be so confrontational and assertive. I'm just trying to speak for a huge number of people I've talked to and seen who intend on entering (and many bringing friends to enter), almost none of whom post on these forums, who all agree with the ruleset we've been developing with the 2 tier system capped at 12s and all that.

     Regarding the 12s also, I strongly agree with the earlier suggestion that we have a "you pick it, you pass it" rule (for all songs picked, not just 12s), and if you want to just forfeit the song and make the other person tire themselves out, you can. Else you can play for a while and make them work harder, or whatever your strategy entails. I guarantee people in the standard bracket, while they may *pass* a 12, will probably tire themselves out quite a bit in the process. And a tired player generally has worse timing, so it could end up being a big mistake to pick a 12 against some people. Along with allowing 12s, this rule would be entirely appropriate, and I hope would help to ease some fears (and make it more interesting!).

     Also kind of a random thing to consider, regarding the "don't be a dick" clause. I agree you really shouldn't pick a song the other person's going to fail outright, as it's somewhat distasteful and you probably could have picked something 1 foot easier they can pass but youll outscore them at anyway, but I wanted to mention to you timing players that it would be equally dick to pick an 8 or 9 with a bunch of stops or something on someone that's never seen it. If they gotta sight read it, you should really make the pick sight readable. Again, just something to consider.


However, Expert division better study everything because we're going to get a little muddy when we all throw down

Hey guys, sorry for not posting more in this thread. I am totally amazed at how much awesome productive discussion you guys produced in this thread! As someone who has organized a tournament before, it's really interesting for me to read. I'm definitely taking everything that's been said into consideration, and I think the best way forward now is for me to draft a couple of proposed rulesets and commence voting on them. I know our community is a unique one, and consequently our tournaments tend to be different from the national standard ruleset. Anyway, I'll be working on that tonight and tomorrow, so expect something soon. In the mean time, continue discussing!

Just a little side note, don't mean to derail: would anyone be interested in a DDR tournament at the same event? It could be a standard tournament format, or it could be something REALLY different. Let me know~!

Tony and I were talking and we think we've thought of a way to make the "standard" tournament even more fair, while also making the format of the tournament slightly more interesting (as some players have suggested)

Back when Cynic ran tournaments, he used a "song card" format for picking songs. Everything else about these tournaments followed the standard rules and bracketing, but instead of picking one song against an opponent, each player would write three songs down on a card, and the other player would choose the one that would be played out of those three. Tiebreakers worked normally - the ONLY difference between this format and the format being discussed here is that players would have to be able to think of THREE songs they felt confident they could win against each opponent instead of just one. "You pick it you pass it" becomes "You put it on your card, you pass it," although that should go without saying.

Why do Tony and I think the extra work is worth it to do this format?

1. It forces ALL players, timing and stamina alike, to practice harder, as they will need to feel confident in their ability to come up with three songs they think they could win at FOR EACH PLAYER THEY MIGHT ENCOUNTER.

2. It makes the timing/stamina dichotomy even less important.  Sure, a timing player could write three tricky songs down and a stamina player could write three 12s down,  but since we've all agreed it would behoove everyone to practice everything, stamina players who don't usually fantastic attack will have a better shot at being competitive on their choice out of three timing charts than they would if one was just picked against them, and vice versa.  Essentially, the more you practice, the more charts you're comfortable with, the more likely it is that at least one of the three charts on your opponent's card will be one that you can compete at.

We believe this format closes the gap between the timing and stamina players so effectively that it renders anti-douche rules almost completely unnecessary. (The you pick it you pass it rule is the exception to this, and that one is only so players can't force each other to pick the single song they want to play most by making a card that consists of the two hardest songs in the game and the chart they want to play.)

Obviously it seems like we were all finally coming to some agreement with regard to the old ruleset, and I don't want to stir things up just for the hell of it.  At the same time, I'm always trying to think of ways to make things more fair (and interesting!) for everyone, and I really feel like this format is perfect for this tournament, and especially for dealing with some of the issues with the "standard" bracket, and Tony agrees so we really wanted to put it out there.

Even if i knew or foresaw a winner or possible couple winners, I'd still gladly pay in to compete. I have set a humble goal for myself, that being to advance one round. (the other two tournaments I've entered, I ended up facing each of my friends that i brought! and those were the only participants i beat, it was the funniest coincidence that it happened as such).

On Gerrak's note, I've also been speaking for 2 of my pals that have recently got back into it and share my views of the 2 tier system capped at 12s. I've felt we've debated our views on this a lot, so I won't take that discussion any further. and it will be up to the rulings/tentative votes to see. I'm okay with a "you pick it, you pass it" and "bow out" rule set also. As long as one can bow out on 12's and 8's alike. As long as this applies to all songs. I'm sure we will be both sportsman/woman-like enough but competitive/strategic at the same time. If things go smoothly/muddy between contestants, it's all normal in such a competition  

Laura, I remember when Cynic ran something like this (i was in one of his touraments). Would this card format happen so that a new card is created every match? I don't have an objection to this format as I already have a good set of songs in mind for competition. Though I do feel a little partial to the picking system and am still in favor of it, this is an interesting and cool idea (im on a 55/45 lean)! So if it goes either way, I'd be happy ahha. Of course, I'm sure all of us would think of different songs for different players too.

Lastly we should make sure things don't run too incredibly long. But if they do, we should have an estimated/tentative timetable (e.g. qualifiers from x-x time, first round x-x time etc.) 

In response to KevinDDR, I'm glad to hear from you! I (and many others) are looking forward to seeing the proposed rulesets you'll have soon. Will there be a tentative or set of possible dates to vote on also? Though I personally wouldn't probably enter a DDR tournament on the same day, I wouldn't have any objection to it, especially if it's some out of the box stuff: I can do Holic while eating a plate of rice and curry, or an R3 switching freestyle with my friend, some interesting stuff for DDR would be pretty cool.

Kevin: I'd enter a DDR tournament for sure!!

Neempoppa: Yes, each player would create a new card each round, so they could select songs strategically based on each player they were up against, just like they would do in a tournament with a more "normal" format.

DDR tournament I'd be all over.

Another vote for being all in for a DDR tourney as well.

On the cards thing: Adding on to what neempoppa said, would one be able to reuse things they put on cards?  For example; I make a card round 1 of Xuxa, July, Anubis.  Anubis gets picked and we play that.  Next round, can I make a card of Xuxa, July, and Zodiac?  Or do all 3 picks have to be fresh?  Both formats have their open grounds for strategies and tournament mind games, so i'm curious.


I'm loving all the discussions and compromises of a community I haven't technically even joined yet.  Though I pose the question again that if you made two seperate ITG brackets, what would the cutoff be and who would be the authority on if one is too good for one division or not good enough for another.  I've had and seen plenty of issues in the past where having both formats starts to give players the mindset that if they don't see themselves beating the upper enchelon of players, then they'd rather join standard where they have a chance at winning the whole thing.  Say *I have no idea how good anyone is; so take this with a grain of salt* Laura is a solid player that could top 8 the expert tourney, but has no chance at beating Keby, Gerrak, and Kevin in any standard format, Laura would probably want to go to the lower division.  Everyone that's not as good as Laura will also want in the Standard division, as if SHE isn't gonna join ex, why the helll would they?

Even if you just have everyone there do a qualifier and the bottom x scores are thrown into the standard division, that just promotes sandbagging.  There's really no fair way of doing this without putting everyone in the same division and forcing people to get better, strategize, and play to their strengths to win imo.

Neko, you've asked some great questions! I'm really looking forward to having you in our community!

First off, with the card format you'd be allowed to reuse songs as long as you haven't actually PLAYED them. That said, chances are you're not going to want to because different players require different strategy. You may know for a fact that you're not going to get below 99.5 on any of the shitty Sammi Morelli songs, so those would be a good pick against somebody who's never triple starred anything in their lives because they're too preoccupied with Dragonforce. They wouldn't be a good pick against the next guy if he has the machine record for quadding all of them.

As for your concerns about two divisions, they're totally valid and I've seen this lead to problems too (most frequently of the "person x entered the trick DDR tournament because they can't pass most of heavy, person y entered the trick DDR tournament because they can't AAA some of heavy" variety.) As a tournament organizer, I'm always trying to discourage stuff like this, but the truth is, if somebody wants to take advantage of the system, they'll probably find a way to do so.

On the unofficial side, this area has an awesome community who make this a non-issue.  People who care enough about winning to sandbag are typically motivated to do so either by prize money or the status that comes along with winning. Everyone here cares more about having fun and seeing how they rank compared to their peers; enough players have machines in their garages that winning tournaments to fund future arcade trips isn't an issue, and I'm pretty sure every single one of us would rather lose against players close to our skill level than slaughter players who still can't pass things that we could triple star when ITG 1 was in beta. If I'm wrong and there IS a player out there who tries to ruin it for everyone else, well... you've seen from this thread how "vocal" some of us can be when we disagree with something or someone. Good luck.

By that token, I don't think our community would allow anyone who was good enough to place in the "upper level" tournament keep entering standard, nor would that person even want to - facing off against the "greats" is an honor even if you don't win! Right now, I think Gerrak summed the line between the two categories of players up nicely: the standard tournament exists so that people who either time well but can't pass a significant chunk of Expert or can beast like a pro but have never gotten 99+ on anything before actually get to play for long enough that they can effectively compare themselves to one another.

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I'll be happy just to be in another ITG tournament. I'm more excited to see how well I'll face off in 7's, 8's, 9's and 10's more so than 12's. I'm really hoping that if we use this format there will be more than just the expected players in the expert division otherwise we'll look like elitists sadly.

Now before anything else a proper ITG tourny needs to happen, BUT!
Since this thread is appropriate I also want to gather some interest real quick for an idea I had in mind.
Who here would be up for entering a smaller SUPER SILLY side tourny I would hold the same day?
I wouldn't compete in this since I'd be running it.
More to the point
SILLY = The best and most literal song challenges you'll ever face. Officials Only.
I'll give one example as to not spoil the other silly challenges I had in mind.
Spin Chicken. Prepare to puke. that is all.
No entry fee. Prize could possibly be a custom ITG poster made by yours truly.
Entrants might like top 4 from both expert and standard divisions (minus myself since once again I'll be hosting this)
Or maybe just see who wants to enter this anyway. I don't expect a 16 man bracket. More like....5 people......
Thoughts? Interest?
I've always wanted to do something like this. It will be so much fun you guys. You don't even know

I want to enter this. Like, seriously.

I'd totally be down for somethin' silly.

Trying DanceCentral for the first time last week in front of 20 other people and getting schooled by a 12 year old girl at it has already mentally prepared me :]

Ok I was holding this back because I was worried of the feasibility but I guess I'll suggest it since it seems as if it would be well received. Presumably, the Expert tournament would immediately follow the Standard, and as such it would be very feasible to hold a DDR SN2 tournament during the Expert ITG tournament, and the competitors would already be there and fresh out of ITG (and some probably looking to redeem themselves). It wouldn't allow the very very top people to compete in it, and it wouldn't allow the DDR machine to be used for staying warmed up for ITG (which I kind of wanted to have, but not necessary I suppose), but it would allow for any kind of even lower level, or silly or whatever type of tournament while keeping the others well preserved.

My only concern here is that I don't want to have the Standard level turn into some freestyle joke of a thing when most of the people want just a normal good meaty tournament. The normal style may seem "boring" to some, but the last ITG tournament we had Canada crashed, sandbagged, played weak ass shit (like the hideously full beat+ offsync song I lost at), and 3/4 of the semifinalists were canada, and both finalists, and almost none of us got to even play against each other. The one before that, KevBo came in and utterly steamrolled his way to the top, took the pot, and none of us so much as stood a chance, and we all sucked back then anyway. The point is, we're LONG overdue for a good ITG tournament and we should make sure it happens right and we don't get sidetracked turning it into freestyle or no bar or something.

I also want to know. Someone like me could probably take 1st, 2nd, or 3rd seed on the qualifier, but everyone here knows I would get crushed VERY quickly in the upper division once it gets to 10+ songs.

I thought this was how everyone started their DDR careers. =D

Awesome. I thought that too Nekosempai, but never got around to asking it. If that's the idea (that we'd be able to repeat a song, just not in the same set/match), then I am okay with either the choosing or card system (whichever the rest of the community decides). 50/50 split, forgive my lack of partiality there.

With everything said, I do like some of the side ideas, as long as we're making use of the other machine also (be it for warming up, or the other tourney/silly ideas) as long its being utilized, more people will be happy.  I was at the tournament KevBo crashed and missed the Canada crash one, so I share Gerrak's yearning for a legitimate tourney to come.

To the point of the divisions, I don't know how many people share my thoughts, but if I did real well and cracked into an expert such division, I would be real proud of myself for making it there, and wouldn't want to go to the standard division (even if i wouldn't have a chance in such an expert division). Picking proper seeding songs will most likely be key and it must be done carefully in such a way that sandbagging does not occur. If there are other measures that can be taken to make a proper division system happen, we should discuss it. I already have a couple players on a mental shortlist for an expert division, but most likely they will 98-99+ the qualifiers, if some of the standard division players crack that too then itll get interesting. I think the idea of making a two seed (e.g. like one 8 or 9, and the other a 10 or so) might aid in proper seeding, so that those in the expert div will have to score consistently very high in both such categories.

Guys to clarify. My side tournament idea would happen AFTER the main tourny as an optional bonus if there is time/being allowed too.

A proper tourney comes first. All I asked is would people be interested in staying just a tad longer for something like that. Thanks. Say yes or no. that's all I want.

Yes, i'm in lol.  Hell, i'll help run / propose round challenges.  The laid back format and 'challenges' each round were something we used to always run at big tourneys in the past, and it was hilarious that the tech winners were NEVER the challenge division winners.  You just can't train for some things....


And ah, it seemed by Gerrack's post that the DDR tourney would be like, a secondary time killer for the standard tourney participants that the expert ITG participants couldn't enter.

Ah, this all has me back into actually playing 4 panel more often ^^.  Good times, good times.

I highly doubt there will be anyone in the Expert tournament sandbagging into the Standard, knowing those who would be up there, and equally doubt that even a good timing player from the Standard division would crack the Expert. But again, why I suggested two seeds, one 9 and one 10, one of which is out of ITG1/2 and the other from 3/Rebirth, to ensure proper seeding. We can throw in an extra contingency that if you accidentally get into Expert but really dont think you should be, then you can forfeit your spot to the next seed. Again I just don't think this will truly be an issue though.

KDDR & others: any updates such as possible dates or possible rule draftings for the tournament?

Allow me to rephrase:

Kevin!!! Get the tournament scheduled! Acme won't let us have it without a whole lot of notice so this needs to get set up VERY SOON. Not like putting songs on the machine where we ask and you do it 9 months later (and then quit 1/4 of the way through the job). If this isn't scheduled within a couple weeks I'm going to schedule it with Acme myself and I/we'll find someone else to run it.

Sorry if that seems a little pushy and mean but I have a feeling if we don't get it set up soon it won't happen at all...

This might sound like a ridiculous idea, but I wonder if we could get an older-school tournament organizer back to run this thing (as part of efforts to revitalize the community!)  Both Cynic and DMN have run countless tournaments for Bill, smoothly at that, and some of them have even been at ACME!

Of course, right now I'm just talking out of my ass, since I don't know if either of them would have time time/desire to do so.

   It doesn't matter to me who runs it, just that it happens at all... If no response has been given to this issue by the weekend I'm going to go ahead and ask Acme and get a date set up. After that, we can decide who wants to run it. I don't particularly want to do it myself, though I would happily lend any assistance needed, so if we can get one of these "old school" guys to run it, by all means get them.

I totally agree there. Be it who ever runs it, as long as it is run, we will be happy. But we'l need to notify Bill and especially ACME soon for this to happen soon.

I didn't know Cynic is still in the area. Hopefully we get the ball rolling on this soon.