I put some thought into the "new machines" vs. "huge event" mentality in terms of drawing new users the scene. I hate to be perfectly blunt about this, but if we got a new Pop'n or IIDX machine, they wouldn't instantly start generating revenue from new users out of the blue. In fact, coming from someone who is an absolute IIDX n00b, the first time I played it in the arcade I was easily defeated not only by how difficult it was but how frustrating it was to navigate the song menu and select options.

If there's IIDX on freeplay at this event, people are obviously more likely to give it a try and therefore play it later on an arcade machine, or at least try/buy a CS version. Now you might be thinking "well that's all fine and good, but who's going to pay $20 just to try IIDX," and that's where the whole idea of the location and the buffet-style selection comes into play. I know several people who would like to get into Bemani, and want to try it at an arcade, and don't because there's a lot of stigma surrounding arcades for them. (and with some of the people trolling this forum how can I blame them) The Space Needle is pretty harmless as far as a Bemani venue goes; it's clean, it won't have any other cabinets, and for Chrissakes it's 200 feet in the air. Plain and simple, people are just going to want to go to the Space Needle more than Gameworks, and think about what kind of first experience that would be! But I'm getting off track; what I meant to get to is that this event should draw people who are mostly there to try "the new DDR," but it's not like we can have everyone playing one machine at once, so to kill downtime while others are trying SN, we're going to encourage people to try the other games that are there. (especially if met is willing to put up his pop'n machine )

Spending 7k on new machines is, unfortunately, going to serve only a small part of the Bemani population. It hurts to say it because I want new machines just as much as the next man, but you have to put things into perspective. We may be the most serious part of the Bemani scene, but we're far from the most lucrative. I don't have any figures, but here's an example. In one day at Ground Kontrol, I'll come and play three dollars worth of DDR and that's about it. On the same day, a collection of one-gamers, newbies, and casual players will come and make at least ten times that. I realize that's kind of an unfair comparison because more than one person plays DDR on a given day outside of Oregon, but even on a larger scale it works. ANYWAY, the point is you have to be honest about this sort of thing. I'm all for new machines, but I doubt Bill or anyone would be willing to get them if there's only a hardcore interest for them. SNSN will definitely bring people out of the woodwork, people who'd never consider playing those things in any other environment.

The planning and money are basically what needs the most work right now, but in terms of marketing this, we've got it pretty much covered.

Also I'm suggesting right here and now that we push the tentative date to Late 2008. We need time to plan and raise money.

edit: Just read Mendel's post. I forgot that renting it out for two days will obviously double the cost, so obviously we're going to need to plan things better.

On one hand, people seem far less gung-ho about a tournament than I expected. I'm wary about cutting it entirely, but if you think it would save time and allow more people to just come and play bemani, we should do it. And of course, that would still generate interest and allow more people to come and play at tournaments at a later date. What are your thoughts, gang?

Keep in mind that the sole purpose of this event isn't to make money or have a competition, it's to expand this woefully moribund scene to new horizons. I think everyone can agree that THAT is exactly what this community needs, by any means available.

I'm not interested in helping organize or participating in any DDR or ITG tournament. I would probably play in the tournament if you guys actually pull this off, but it's definitely not something to make me excited about an event like this happening. Then again, I don't really have any opinion or care about the "community dieing". I can still play the games I enjoy and have fun doing so, with or without new people.

You guys could also look into the Fisher Pavilion. It's on the Seattle Center grounds, has a lot more room than the Space Needle, would obviously cost tons less, and would be easier to get things into. But I guess you said the venue is your biggest draw for this thing...

In addition to getting sponsorship, if we're trying to make this a wide west coast event, then it would be wise to contact Eddie and Anthony from TGA and the other Bemanifest guys.

I can get ahold of both of them if need be, and get exposure for the event all over Bemanistyle once the idea gets ironed out, and a venue firmly in the works.

It will attract the new community players that aren't already here or known, and it will make the bemani community bigger looking online as well.


I can help out with this marketing part once the details are hashed out.

@Darknote

Yeah, I see what you mean. It's going to be almost impossible to run a double elimination tournament, so I'm thinking about going with Ethan's idea and either having a single elimination for a smaller fee or just nixing the tournament entirely. Finding a way to generate revenue then becomes a problem, but I'm hoping that sponsorships and donations could cover that. If not, we may need to change venues, which is highly undesirable.

darknote has made posts similar to mine (logistics of why this would take too much time or money).  Why don't you tell him to stop trolling, too?

It's not like I want the community to die.  Sure, I'm not as enthusiastic about reviving it as I once was, but I sure as hell was not trying to kill it off by pointing out that this would be implausible.  I'm just saying that; that I think it's implausible, and why.

Other Bemani gatherings across the nation are successful in venues not quite as elaborate.

BowlmaniFest is at TGA, an arcade/bowling alley. I think that you guys are getting a little hung up on the "omg" factor of the Space Needle and not the practicality of the Event.
Look at the arcades around here. When we want to play bemani around here, we go because of the games and the people. Think about it: Gameworks is way more visually appealing, central location in Seattle, and has plenty of other games. NOBODY went there until it got the bemani games. The discount cards made it reasonably priced, although the only downside way parking.
But look at how many people went (and still visit) Acme instead. It has a small arcade, without ventilation, crappy kids running around, but it has the GAMES.

Why will any of us care about coming? The people and the games. NOT because it's omg the space needle. The same thing will follow for any "casual bemani" player. If we have just an ok spot, with plenty of games and stuff to DO rather than look at, everyone will have more fun.

The space needle will be a PAIN to get crap up there and back, organized, parking sucks, not to mention whatever restrictions renting the floor will come with. This is the space needle, not some convention center that really doesn't care. If the word goes out, no matter where it is, if it's going to be fun people will come.

Well duh, you've repeatedly stated the only revival you care about involves upgrading machines to the newest versions.

Mendel seems to actually put effort into his posts. you spew the same bullshit you always do. Instead of coming  up with new arguments it's the same "community dead / we need new machines / I hate it when people don't play bemani besides ddr". Besides, you tend to put a damper on new ideas whenever presented. I think that you should just take some time away from the internet and figure out some more important shit, because your posting habits lead me and others to make assumptions about some greater underlying problems that you have.

When I argue with James the argument evolves, but whenever I argue with you, it's hard. Not that you're exceptional at arguing, you're just exceptionally stubborn and really lack vision on a grander scale. Instead of your argument evolving, you hold the same ideas to be always true. You're the same way with people (to further solidify this point), you make a very narrow image of a person  and never let them break out of that box. Whenever I have tried to have serious discussion with you, it's always Tada runs away because zeppy is retarded.  

Stay in this argument, and bring new ideas to the table as to why we shouldn't have this event, instead of providing obtuse ideas that are too general to outweigh the specific positives brought forward by Discovolante.

I'll be honest, and I'm not trying to spark a flamewar or anything, not that any major thread on this forum can ever go without one, but I'm totally with zeppy on this. We're consistently putting out positives and admitting that we're aiming very high. It really helps to be ambitious, and I know from the repeated commitment of people in this community that there will be follow-through. I mean, what it comes down to is positivity vs. negativity, and again, I love criticism but I hate flat-out negativity. There is a huge difference.

I'm hearing both what Jonathan and Davyn are saying, about the Space Needle maybe not having the same weight I'm envisioning here. However, the more people I tell, both casual players and hardcore players alike, the more I notice that people are really drawn to the ridiculousness of having an event that high up. It's just something to consider. Obviously Pike Place would be less expensive, and if I'm not mistaken it is outdoors, so that could be fun, but then again there's all the street traffic to worry about plus weather, etc. Unless you were planning something indoors in which case that point is null.

edit: It was Fisher Pavilion, not Pike Place. I'm smart and can read. I actually don't know anything about the location, so could someone educate me?

Why not seattle center?

oh wow. jeez If there's any way I could help out with this, I would love to see this take off (although I can't make any financial contributions). Space Needle + Bemani = Massive Win.

hmmm still not liking the idea of ddr, i dont care where it is ill probably go as long as a few decent bemani games are there, and some cool people, but if tehre was an itg machine (even better a dedi) i would probably pay more to go, especially if it was on event.. so a bit of practice, and then a tourny, also i like the idea of 2 day thing... dunno i know it doubles the cost of renting a place and all, but i think a cheaper location and two days of it (shit all nighter bemani?) would be ALOT cooler then 1 day 200 feet in the air (i probably wouldnt go last time i was at the space needle i almost had a panic attack and had to quickly leave, i also cant fly unless im heavly sedated, hights terrify me)

Space Needle is hella ridiculous.  It's a fantastical idea, but it seems so risky.  It would be EPIC FAIL or The greatest thing to hit bemani ever.

Getting something together like this is insane, and I think you guys are crazy for stepping up to the plate and thinking about it.  I personally am avid about supporting the community and am willign to throw away $50 for a good time and making sure people might get into bemani.

Personally, I would go for something that's is semi central but affordable and practical.  Don't you have to take everything up in elevators at the space needle?  I mean, it just sounds like it would be a laborous idiotic process.  On the ground you have a ton of flexibility whereas the Space Needle not so much.

BTW The fighting game community is trying to throw majors together, we'll see how that goes.  I think they're thinking about using a college for free/cheap space and lots of it while still being in a good location and having the bonus of people around that would like to play games.

Could you keept he first post updated with all the most up-to-date info?

Also, my most begging question is WHEN!? I go to school in Pullman, WA and I doubt I could just float off for a weekend without some advanced notice (And there're surely people even farther away than me who'd like to go).

Short answer: Yes, I would pay $40, maybe even more, if I knew for a fact that I could make it without getting in the way of my job or school.

IDEA: Could you find some people wanting to do a fighting game tournament and share the space (and costs) for this thing? Or is the mixing of said gamers a recipie for disaster?

P.S. Thanks for making it a DDR tourny. Even if ITG is a better game, I still love my didder. I think it reaches out to a larger player base than ITG.

On top of that, casual players play DDR, not ITG.

Seattle Center sounds like a better idea as well. The Needle is a logistical nightmare, and too costly.

I'm not in the "willing to drop $40" group myself. Not that I don't want to support it as I will do what I can to help, it just doesn't seem worth it when I hang out with bemani people on the weekends for free and have an equally good time.

I think the consensus is we should probably move it elsewhere. The Seattle Center is right next to it, so if people still wanna go Flying High I guess they can. I was pretty stoked about going so High up through those Magic Doors on the elevators, but what can you Do Me?

Anyway, I have a ridiculously good idea but I want to clear it with Kevin first.

I still think, cost aside, the space needle would be the most epic place to hold a bemani event. even if it doesn't happen this time, I don't think it should never be considered again.

Well I'm somewhat glad to see the venue is being considered for another locale.  I myself am not acrophobic but I was a little fearful of being at the top of a narrow spire with a bunch of people stomping around all night long =O

Good to see the $40, $20 idea was already being considered.  I definitely think that is the way it should be done.

If we move the locale though Met will get out of his Pop'N commitment =P ah well.

As for tada/zeppy, I can only advise tada to ignore zeppy.  Anyhow, I don't think Tada is the only pessimistic person in the local community, but maybe he just doesn't hide his pessimism as well.  

I like the marketing idea that Jon has stated; I am certain bemanistyle will support whatever good thing we get going.
I think at this point, now that you've maybe got a more reasonable venue plan picked out, all you need to do is advise specifics and get some commitments and this will be on its way.

I admit, I'm a little acrophobic too.  Not only would there be stomping, but there would be resonance from the sound waves as well...

I think the $40/$20 idea is good, but we should knock it down a bit.  No real need to keep the same 2:1 ratio.  Hang-outage should be significantly cheaper.  I'd say maybe something like $15/$5.

Guys, there are always people stomping on the Space Needle. Not only will they be on a raised platform, it's not going to cause the needle to shake. Period. Not even zeppy stomps that hard.

And I'll consider lowering the price for the event if it's in the Space Needle when I hear it's too expensive from people WITHOUT a disposable income. Tada, you do realize that a ticket up the Space Needle is like $30, right?

The Space Needle is a megaton structure made of outrageously thick forged steel.  It has remained erect though numerous earthquakes in the Seattle area.  No person, ever, stomps or will stomp with the force of a magnitude 3 earthquake, unless they're a continental plate or a volcano, and I typically don't look at landmasses as people.

Tada, don't come, 'cause you don't want to.  'nough said.

I think we'd have to aim to have at LEAST 50 people come, which means pre-registration.

I'd suggest we'd have a $10 pre-registration and a back-up venue.  Then, if we don't get enough people on board to go to the needle, we can go to our back-up venue and kick it there with the same machines and stuff, but a less epic venue.  Then, if we do have enough people pre-registered, we can go to the space needle, and then anyone who pre-registered can pay another $5 to just hang out or $20 to join the tournament, then we can keep the 20/40 at the door registration rates. (this comes out to 15/30 pre-reg, 20/40 at the door)

We should also do some fundraising of some sort.  For instance, we could put on some concerts or something.  We could also have some additional fundraising stuff at the event, like have some paid advertising for PNW businesses we like.

Another big concern is the prize.  Would it be winner-take-all?  1st gets %40, 2nd 30%, and 3rd/4th both get %20?  Would the funds come directly out of the $20 extra people pay for the tourney?

We need a treasurer.

Famous last words :lol:
Seriously though, I'm not saying my fears are grounded in scientific fact.  Its just a feeling I get from the situation, is all.
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Anyhow, first step would be to determine the pricing for renting an alternative venue like Seattle Center, then seeing if you can tone down the ticket prices from that analysis or not.

I think $20 is still OK for non-tourney participation peeps, but $15 might also work if the difference in locale rental costs allows it.

Pre-registration is a slippery issue.  And I'll leave it at that.  

I think in order to get something like this together and have a pre-reg and treasurer level of involvement, we would need an in-person formal meeting on the subject.

The Fisher Pavilion is a big building on the Seattle Center grounds. Imagine the Seattle Center as a huge park with lots of smaller buildings in it. There isn't really a "center" you could just have an event at. You do it in one of the buildings in the complex. Here's the site about the Pavilion. I've been in it (and the space needle) several times (you guys are crazy for thinking DDR could ever shake that thing). It's pretty nice. Microsoft has a lot of Xbox 360 parties/demos and they also hold the Sonics draft parties in there, as well as various festivals throughout the year. And like I said it's about 1 minute walking distance from the Needle itself, so any transportation and parking plans would be the same.

Since when did the Space Needle become cool? I was up there for the first time a few months ago, and it... umm is a building with windows you can look out. Yay?

Lets pay more so we play DDR while looking out a window of a tall building?

c'mon, who else in the WORLD would be able to say they played didder in the space needle. I personally think that'd be an amazing event, and would definately drop $40 for that.