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[cynic]

All right, I'm just going to throw this out there for a little discussion on a few changes I was thinking about:

:arrow: Remove: Air Hockey
:arrow: Remove: File Area

Neither get many posts anymore. If people need to upload more than a few files they can use Megaupload, and we could move the random music thread into Off Topic discussion or something.

:arrow: Split Serious (Off Topic) Business into its two child forums, Serious Business and Off-topic Discussion.

There seems to be a definitive rift between the two types of topics... I think we need to separate the serious philosophical topics (ie How old is the earth?, etc) from the random stuff. (Pictures thread, ARTWORK THREAD GOGO, etc.)

...

So now it is up to YOU, THE USERS (and BlueSS, of course) to decide the FATE OF THE FORUM. gogogogogo

[tada]

What about Laura?  Tony?  Cynic?  They've been around a bit.

Anyway, eliminating serious discussion is not going to make this forum any more a magnet for stupid users.  Even so, we have the basic rules to prevent people like that from sticking around that long.

[AlphaConqerer]

I'm floored by all the forum changes in such a short period of time.  I wouldn't say I disagree with them, but I think at least the decision to get rid of serious business was a little uncalled for.   I'm a little discouraged from posting now, honestly...

Though I think some members' challenging of authority goes a little overboard, overall I think serious debates are good to have.  At the same time, I think a lot of "established" members of the bemani community take an overly haughty mindset in their dealings on forums and this is almost as destructive as so called "stupid users."

[zeppy_gorrila]

What about Laura?  Tony?  Cynic?  They've been around a bit.

Anyway, eliminating serious discussion is not going to make this forum any more a magnet for stupid users.

Naw, it's just gonna make stupidity and trolling tha standard. Then it won't look stupid because there aren't any posts of substance (ala ITGFreak!).

[BLueSS]

Naw, it's just gonna make stupidity and trolling tha standard. Then it won't look stupid because there aren't any posts of substance (ala ITGFreak!).

Well then I guess it's time we start permanently getting rid of the trolls.

You've stated several times you don't like it here, so let me help you out by giving you more time to find other sites that will argue with you for the sake of arguing.

Goodbye, Zeppy.

[Diggit_6]

I say we debate wether or not this was a good idea :mykl:
lol jk. I actually think ti's a good idea. I enjoyed the debating and stuff, and spent most of my time in serious business, but now we can all get back to what this forum is really about. BEMANI!
This is PNWBemani.net right? Not PNWZOMGZletsargueandpretendbemanibarelyexists.net
Lets' just find other forums with more ppl in them for arguing. arguing is more fun with more viewpoitns in it, and PNWBemani doesn't have very many members. So ja. Good call i guess. kinda mixed feelings tho, but I'll get over it.

[tada]

I agree.  There are plenty of other places out there where you can have serious debates.  No need to have it here, where a lot of us are sick of it, want the forums to actually concentrate on Bemani, or simply just don't want to do it.

Also, in the future, I think you should actually give people chances to put in their input.  You only left the original suggestions up for barely four hours before making the changes.

[Iori240]

I'm really glad we're taking steps towards eliminating all of the trolls in here. It'll help clean up that mess ^^;;

[ChilliumBromide]

HERE COMES THE SUN DOODUMDOODOO! (lolgetit?  Sun, trolls, I'm lame. . .)

BlueSS, I'd like to point out that zeppy's treatment from you specifically in this thread has been grossly unfair.  You've shut him out because he thinks that your actions regarding the forums were a bad idea.  Just because someone has a different view than you and states it in a fashion you view disagreeable does not constitute a ban.  You've pretended to act like you didn't want to fight with him, but every suggestion he's made has been immediately shot down, and every rule on this board has basically been targeted at him.  Everyone here has their individual misgivings, you, for one, are very unaccepting of others' misgivings.  As an administrator, it's important that you work hard to work with all your forum members and comply to the general concensus.  As I have stated before, zeppy is a vibrant personality that takes a lot of getting used to, but he's also a good friend and deep intellectual if you don't chain him up and box him in.

Also,
This is a good forum for debate because of the intellectuality of so many of the members.  If you don't want a debate, don't go into debate threads.  If you're going into a debate thread, I doubt it's because you think debates blow, and you do, YOU ARE TROLLING.

Please don't just brush this post off lightly, I'm starting to get really concerned with where this forum is going.

-Charles

[BLueSS]

Everyone here has their individual misgivings, you, for one, are very unaccepting of others' misgivings.  As an administrator, it's important that you work hard to work with all your forum members and comply to the general concensus.  As I have stated before, zeppy is a vibrant personality that takes a lot of getting used to, but he's also a good friend and deep intellectual if you don't chain him up and box him in.

You don't have the full picture. I had given given Zeppy several second-chances (trying not to "box him in") but he didn't want to listen to any of it and wanted to do his own thing. This decision wasn't just me vs him either. Both Cynic and I wanted him gone, as did other forum members who have been around longer and haven't caused any trouble before.

I'm glad you are concerned for the forum, but we now need to move on from this.

[Laura]

Time for my two cents:

First of all, I really liked having Serious Topics, but I also really liked having them split up from random off topics threads because, well, of what's been mentioned: Sometimes I'm in the mood for a debate, and sometimes I want to make threads about dolls with Down Syndrome. (As a sidenote, what's with all the hate for that thread? It was just as valid in a random goofing off forum as a Happy Birthday Chuck Norris thread or a College English thread...) I don't think that debates about religion and philosophy are bad for the community, I just think that they need to be in a place that serves that purpose only, so that those who choose to avoid them can do so easily, and those who are interested know exactly what they're getting.

Secondly... I have been considering maybe just starting a completely non-Bemani community affiliated PNW Air Hockey website/forum; would anybody who would have previously posted in Air Hockey here be interested in doing something along those lines as an alternative to having that board here? (Even I think that Air Hockey was a little awkward on a Bemani site and didn't really belong.)

[manyminimoos]

Naw, it's just gonna make stupidity and trolling tha standard. Then it won't look stupid because there aren't any posts of substance (ala ITGFreak!).

Well then I guess it's time we start permanently getting rid of the trolls.

You've stated several times you don't like it here, so let me help you out by giving you more time to find other sites that will argue with you for the sake of arguing.

Goodbye, Zeppy.

Lol personal vendetta.

Too bad matthew's post is exactly what I meant in my post, except I made the result of forum deterioration clear.

I'm really glad we're taking steps towards eliminating all of the trolls in here. It'll help clean up that mess ^^;;

...

[cynic]

Yeah, it's really a personal vendetta when probably half the board feels the same way, including both admins. As Jonathan said above, we gave him plenty of warnings and he was still being an ass, so he had to go.

...and I also fail to see how an "Intelligent Discussion" board could've done ANYTHING for us, other than get people pissed at each other and form little asskissing cliques around people that really care enough to argue on the internet. It's not like it'll keep stupid people from joining or carry over to other boards.

[tada]

Too bad matthew's post is exactly what I meant in my post, except I made the result of forum deterioration clear.

"Deterioration" is in the eye of the beholder.  Having the forum be a wasteland when it comes to intelligent discussion is not deterioration in my mind.  Actually, I think removing the intelligent discussion was an improvement.  Having half the forums hate each other's guts, leading to massive drama and the forums dying is deterioration.  That's probably what was going to happen had we kept Serious Business around.

As I've said before, there are plenty of other places on the internet to have serious philosophical discussions.  No need to drag everyone here into it.  I already know I'm going to get called out on that last sentence, but it really did seem like all anyone was doing was posting in those serious topics while they existed in a severe overexposure.

[Diggit_6]

Too bad matthew's post is exactly what I meant in my post, except I made the result of forum deterioration clear.

"Deterioration" is in the eye of the beholder.  Having the forum be a wasteland when it comes to intelligent discussion is not deterioration in my mind.  Actually, I think removing the intelligent discussion was an improvement.  Having half the forums hate each other's guts, leading to massive drama and the forums dying is deterioration.  That's probably what was going to happen had we kept Serious Business around..

I agree, I've already started dislikng certain people who opinion has differed from mine. I don't dislike these people intentionally, that's just how the arguments have made me feel. So ja, I agree totally

As I've said before, there are plenty of other places on the internet to have serious philosophical discussions.  No need to drag everyone here into it.  I already know I'm going to get called out on that last sentence, but it really did seem like all anyone was doing was posting in those serious topics while they existed in a severe overexposure.

Ja you're going to get called out on that.I was the one who said that o_O!

[manyminimoos]

If you start hating each other over religious views, you have issues and probably should stop browsing the internet before you blow shit up.

[cynic]

If you start hating each other over religious views, you have issues and probably should stop browsing the internet before you blow shit up.

Far more people do this than you think, and though they won't say it outright it can really amplify little issues people have with each other. Cut out the "civil debate" and people will generally get along better. I was far more worried about this happening (which I've already witnessed stemming from some of the discussions at ITGfreak) than people actually going off one one another on the actual forum.

[tada]

As I've said before, there are plenty of other places on the internet to have serious philosophical discussions.  No need to drag everyone here into it.  I already know I'm going to get called out on that last sentence, but it really did seem like all anyone was doing was posting in those serious topics while they existed in a severe overexposure.

Ja you're going to get called out on that.I was the one who said that o_O!

No, I was expecting more of "If you don't like serious discussion, then you don't have to do it".  But the fact is, there were very few other posts going on other than that.

@Godai: If you come to a forum that's supposed to be about Bemani expecting serious discussion, you have problems.

[BLueSS]

Serious discussions (not debate topics) will still be welcome in the proper circumstances (probably not right now), but SB was turning this into a debate forum instead of a Bemani forum.

We are here to play music games; not argue over religion, philosophy, or conspiracies... right?

[manyminimoos]

@Godai: If you come to a forum that's supposed to be about Bemani expecting serious discussion, you have problems.

If you expect me to only talk about bemani where there is a subforum titled "bemani discussions" and another labeled "serious business," and yet another "off topic discussions," you have problems.  Supposed to be about bemani my ass, I thought this forum was about the community surrounding bemani, not about the games themselves.

[Iori240]

There's more to life than just dumb internet jokes and video games. I think we kinda need a forum that expresses us (or at least those who are :x) as well rounded individuals. The whole split from ITG freak is kinda pointless unless we are gonna do something to set us apart from them.... I dunno.

[AlphaConqerer]

I hate to admit it, but I kind of agree with James' sentiment on this (though not stated in quite the same way).  I personally did not come to this forum to talk about DDR (but maybe I did to talk about Drummania/GuitarFreaks), I came to get to know people, what they think, and so on so forth.  One drawback of the debate is that I think I have formed negative opinions of some of the members, without even meeting them irl, whereas my end goal was to try to meet and get to know as many people as possible irl.  I don't know if this can necessarily be blamed on the serious business forum, however.  It could just be my own anger management problems. :lol:

In any case, I think this thread is making up for some of the lost debate in the serious business forum, anyhow :wink:

[Iori240]

Yeah, from what I gather, half the community hates zeppy without even meeting him? I dunno. IRL he's actually pretty funny and cool. He's pretty down to earth and is a good friend of mine. I don't know what to say, guys...

[BLueSS]

There are *tons* of ways to get to know people better that don't require arguing/debating/serious discussion regarding who's idea or thought is right and who's is wrong. ;-)

#1 way: Hanging out/going to the arcade and talking in real life to the other people here. :-)

[AlphaConqerer]

I didn't hate Zeppy, personally.  Thought he was alright and he didn't get on my nerves, but I could see that he was getting on several others'.   He was interested in sharing his musical tastes also which was neat, though I didn't agree with all of them. He started some good debate threads and made some good points even as he started some bad debate threads and made some bad points.  The main problem I believe was his vehemence towards the admins, and well this is an autocracy not a democracy, so...

I still think the whole permaban and deletion of serious business was too hasty to be comfortable, though; even if Zeppy had made some enemies.

@BLueSS:
I'm honestly a bit shy irl and at the arcade I'm usually very focused on Drummania.  So for me, chatting people up irl at the arcade isn't very conducive to meeting them.

[Diggit_6]

i think SB is good. Let's bring it back, and add a no Debate/Conspiracy rule. maybe a three strike system, break the rules three times (or less if it's bad enuf) and MASSIVE BAN FOR YOU! That way we can still have serious discussion. But i agree the debate topics were out of hand. Just an idea ;P