They're bold because more people have clicked through from google under those search terms.

Bracket raping expands upon the game by allowing for more possibilities of arrow sequences to be stepped with correct timing. It was a natural progression in play style as songs became faster *cough max300 cough* and more and more people started playing aiming for perfect technical precision. IMO bracket raping is a fundamental aspect of playing the game in its purest form. If you are positioning yourself in a way that is fluid and with controlled rhythm, there will be times where it is to your advantage to hug the bracket and others where it is to your advantage to aim more for the center of the arrow to gain more leverage for controlling turns - this one of the less subtle uses for superior movement based upon positioning bracket raping offers.  It also allows for the conservation of energy when applicable meaning people can play for longer periods of time.

Bracket raping just makes sense; the only reason there are brackets there in the first place is because something had to hold the plastic in place while allowing for compression. DDR has always been a game where instead of your hands you use your feet. Seems hard to believe someone would claim pushing two buttons with one hand, or one thumb even, is ruining anything.

Fact is, bracket raping adds a lot to the game as far as possibilities and depth; while taking nothing away from it. I've never actually heard any coherent argument against bracket raping (then again I've never debated for the positives of it before either), so I'd love to hear more about how it ruins the game.

PS: Bracket raping.

Interesting. . . . I agree with Hooby. I don't think anything can really take away from the experience of dancing games. Why? because people develop different play styles. I for one don't bracket rape because......well....I just flat out can't do it without failing miserably. Besides I just figure if I play the song normally my endurance will increase at a much much higher rate.

   I'm not sure what 'bracket raping' all-in-all is supposed to entail, but as part of it, and to put in my 2 cents to this pointless argument, to stomp out triple and quadruple notes (which frankly are dumb in and of themselves anyway but are typically doable with hands on any ITG song) without hands is dumb and helps ruin the game for this simple reason: not everyone can do it. You HAVE to have big enough feet and the right kind of shoes to bend over the corners and hit both notes, and that kind of specificity doesn't expand upon anything, it just makes certain things unattainable for some players, and I've seen charts that are like this. DDR/ITG are games everyone can play no matter what, minus serious health conditions that would affect any form of exercise, and to expect this of a player is stupid.
    As far as just doing fast shit (or anything really) by putting your feet on the corners and moving as efficiently as possible, this indeed was an inevitability. If I was in a tournament against a notorious bracket raper I would probably just pick a heavy crossover song or very awkward hand song and beat the hell out of them. If I didn't beat them, they were probably better than me whether they bracket raped or not.

And yes many ITG and DDR players are elitist asshats. Play the game for fun and/or exercise. If not either you're an asshat. If both you're a superhero. IMO anyway

yeah, this might come as a shock to you but you're actually flat-out wrong. it's a matter of technique, not necessarily one of foot size. some people can actually play entire songs without moving very much because they have enormous feet, but cheating triples and quads with your feet can be done with any shoe size, period, because you can roll your feet to do it. easily. I did it for a long time, and I have size ten and a half shoes. Phylicia can do it consistently and I'm pretty sure her shoes are smaller than mine. ESPECIALLY if you're playing on an ITG2 dedicab where the brackets are small and you won't have to roll more than half an inch.

and even if it were purely a matter of foot size, that's like saying that tall people have an unfair advantage playing basketball. in other words, a borderline retarded argument. people with natural physical advantages are (surprisingly!!) going to have advantages in physically competitive situations.

furthermore, there aren't any official charts that can't be done using your hands "without cheating," so anyone who really can't do charts with bracket raping uh, shouldn't put them on their usb.

and lastly, no, you can play the game however you want regardless of how the "developers intended it" or whatever. I'm pretty sure the bar was just there as a safety measure because Konami didn't want to get sued, and now it's an integral part of tournament-level gameplay.

I kind of agree with both you to an extent. While I do find bracket raping pointless personally (I can see why people do it, it's understandable) For endurance reasons, I'd rather just push myself to the breaking point than try conserve energy on a song using a technique I really really suck at (I'm not kidding, I failed Tribal Style trying to bracket rape it)
It's not like I'm going to tell that kid he's doing it wrong, because they're not. People find all kinds of ridiculous ways to play the game.

Speaking of foot size, yeah.....if amber can bracket rape fine, I think just about anyone can.
No offense amber, we love you, but your feet are tiny, hahaha. It's not like you check this forum that much anyways lol.

Being tall != being better at dance games. Take, Yasu, and Kevbo aren't what many would consider tall, but they're some of the best players this genre has ever seen.

The bigger a person is, they expend an exponential amount of energy per motion. Tall, skinny players probably have the largest advantages in these games due to their relatively low height-weight ratio. Most of you know how difficult it is for me to do 10+ charts. It's not because I can't read them, it's just exhausting for me to be moving my 230 lbs body around and 300 BMP for 555 steps in 1.5 minutes.

Interesting note: I weigh 50 or 75 pounds more than most of you...could you imagine having to play with a backpack or something that weighs that much?

I do have the advantage of having larger feet, which would probably aid in "bracket raping", but I still can't play like that at all. Every time I bracket rape, I fail the song or get such a crazy low score. I can't understand why people would play like this...where's the fun at?

Do you... not know how a metaphor works?

Being tall makes playing basketball (at the most basic level) easier. That was what I said. I used that as a metaphor to compare to the ridiculous assertion that having bigger feet (or the "right size" feet) is unfair.

But, to be fair, having way too big of feet is a bad thing for dancing games. Look at Bigfoot, who streams wayoffs during most runs because he rocks something like size 18 or 19 shoes.

But yeah that thing about tall people and dancing games? Kinda came out of nowhere dude.

I had posted a thread about the perfect dance games body at one point.  My conclusion is that there really isn't one.  They all have advantages and disadvantages.

I totally sympathize with Suko on having to throw around 230lbs.  But the best DDR player in New England is 300lbs.  (And I'm not at all saying that Suko is making excuses.  I'm just saying that you can still be the best with a handicap like weight/height.)

Conversely, I weigh 100lbs soaking wet.  When I lean back on the bar so I can move quicker, I actually get pad greats because I'm only barely activating the sensor.  So I had to adapt to playing flat footed on fast, streaming songs, which is a huge strain on my knees and eats up a lot more energy.  But that doesn't stop me from getting 2 greats on CSFILSM. 



And I totally agree with Keby here.  My shoe size is a 5 1/2 in women's, which is a 3 1/2 in men's. (I can get light-up Spiderman velcro sneakers in my size.)  I can hit four arrows at once on ITG.  I can also do some bracket raping, although my weight is more an issue the foot size.


tl;dr Everyone on this forum has something 'wrong' with their body for dance games.  Be it height, weight, or foot size, I guarantee there is a modification that you can make to make it work for you.  And if that modification is bracket raping, using the bar, or whatever else, I don't think it can be criticized.  However you make the game work for you is part of the 'unique' journey of kicking ass at dance games.  And as long as you're having fun, who cares? 

And if you're going to whine, watch this guy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ok1Xc01oJ4

I envy you so much. I would luv to play DDR in some light-up shoes. That would be my ultimate rave.

Btw, I would totally buy a pair of Heelies (sp?) if they made them in ginormous size.

In my spare time, I dream up ways of thwarting small children in Heelies.  "Ass over tea-kettle" is the phrase, I think. (UBER bonus points if anyone gets that reference.)

But maybe I'll get some light-up Transformer sneakers for the next tournament lol.

  All of the top players Bar Rape for good reason: It's the best technique. If you want to be good at the game you need to learn it. Not Bar Raping in DDR would be analogous to taking a sword to a gun fight.
  If your body isn't the best in the world for this game, do all you can to condition yourself. If you want to be good at something you have to earn it. Don't just be a whiny scrub on a message board screaming like a banshee about your inability to pass 13s. I have issues with concentration that I cannot change and will not EVER be able to overcome. Does that mean I make every other post about that or start pointing fingers at false enemies in order to console myself? No. Do your absolute best and use all the tools at your disposal and play to win... If your body is honestly so out of shape that it impedes your progress in this game, you chose the wrong game. DDR / ITG is an intensely physical activity. Not everything is for everyone.
  However... I don't think physique is the issue.

Let's look at the physique of the best ITG players in the country, just for good measure.

MegamanX: skinny Bruce Lee, not trying to be racist, Kevin just straight-up looks like Bruce Lee a lot of the time and has decent muscular physique. he's gotta be maybe 5'10 5'11 can't weigh more than 180.
ICNH: tall and skinny white kid. probably weighs about 150 pounds, 6'+
Flash: tall-ish (maybe 6' or a little shorter), last I remember somewhat muscular, good physique, probably comparable to MMX if not a little taller.
DarkXuxa: not that tall, maybe my height or an inch taller (so 5'8 I'd say), skinny, plays in jeans and skate shoes and totally destroys.

Kaze and I concluded that these four are the uncontested best at ITG right now so, and I think they have really diverse physiques. I'm 5'7 and weigh way too much (like 170) with all the muscle in my glamour muscles. I'm not great at hard songs but recently I PFC basically everything 12 and under that I play. now working on 13's and up. (this is on the X scale of course)

I'm 5'4 140... sigh... I'm like 3 standard deviations below the mean of good players apparently

Kind of true, but amber still misses a lot of hands if she tries to do them with her feet... I've watched, specifically to make myself feel better 

Maybe I just need to refine my technique then...


I think at this point most of us are arguing nothing though... IMO one legged DDR is the only REALLY legit way to play anyway.

I still claim to be the end all for foot size debates.  My feet are not huge (8 1/2), but I was one of the pioneers of not using hands on trips and quads.  Amber's foot size is more than enough, she just lacks the technique.  In fact, I can pretty consistently hit corner jumps on DDR with one foot (which is much, much harder to do because of the way input for jumps is processed on ddr).  It's all about how you do it.

By the way ethan, I wouldn't describe a group of four moderately tall skinny to fit white boys having "diverse physiques"

A good player to bring into this would have been someone like nicolas mariani (I fucking forget his SN, but he's originally from HI and now lives in VA).  He's not the best ITG player by any means, but at least on DDR he can AAA just about anything he wants.  The dude is 200+

Gerrak> Worry not.  Kaze is easily very top tier when it comes to DDR only players.  He is uh, not very tall.  At all.
I will say though that people like he and windeu are definitely exceptions; most of the really good players I've known are tall and skinny~fit.

James> Fair enough but consider some other great players like Kaze/Hudson (shorter than me, white, small feet) and Soul of Ignorance/Chris (big, black, muscular, big feet) or NicX (big fat white dude, though he's lost a lot of weight). Maybe those four weren't the best example, but I'm just saying there's diversity among the best players.

The point you ended up making was that there wasn't diversity among the best of the best, haha

and yeah, nicx = nicolas mariani.  such a chill dude. 

Even in Japan, back when I lived there, some of the best players were take, yasu, fujitake, kk, and kobayan.  They represented almost every player with 10 foot AAAs at the time.  They are all taller than me.  Go figure.

James, you and I and Hudson are not very tall

we should be Team 背が低い

Hey dude I'm not that short either.  5'8 and a half. 

What I wanted to say was that those Jap dudes are really tall for JP peeps

c'mon James, you don't wanna join Team Sega?

no but that is a good point. Japanese people, especially DDR players here are short as fuck. I think BROSONI is supposed to be fairly tall though, and he's the only guy I can think of who's consistently VERY good at hard stuff.

also, what would your cutoff for short/tall people be? I'm 5'7, maybe 5'7 and a half on a good day.

In the states for a guy?  I'd say 5'6 is short.  5'8 maybe... but 5'10 is not short anymore.  Probably 6+ before I start saying "tall"

In Japan chop 3 inches or so off that.

5'10 or so is average in states for a guy. 5'7.5'' in Japan. God I feel short....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_height
I'm pretty convinced though that there is some height advantage in dance games, be it because of larger foot size or the reduced leg angle (as in, from your hips to the pad your legs form a lesser angle if youre tall than short) allowing for proportionately less movement. Past a certain height you may have a disadvantage when using the bar because of awkward posture. Could be a bogus observation but most great players (on ITG, which encompasses the hardest songs anyway) are within a 6-8" height range between high 5s and low 6s and are pretty skinny and lean. DDR I would think is less dependent because it's more of a timing game than speed and stamina. Not to say you *have* to be in this category to be good, but probably to be the best.

What are we talking about again? I don't even remember at this point.

I definitely call bullshit on this observation.  I'll give you skinny and lean, but that comes with pretty much anything athletic involving large amounts of endurance and aerobic fitness.

But the height part.  You just said 5'10" is about average in america, so of course a random smattering of people are going to be in the high 5s low 6s range.

edit: in fact, I just did some quick looking up, and 72% of american males 18-24 are between 5'7 and 6'1 (6" range), and 89% of them are between 5'6 and 6'2 (8" range)
Unless you're going to tell me conclusively that a disproportionately larger amount of good ITG players are in these height ranges...
Statistics ftw
I'll also add that the data is 30 years old, so probably add an inch or two in the ranges and you'd still get simliar numbers.

Ok, you find me 4 ITG players who are outside this height range who can 99 most 13s and I'll find you 16 who are in the height range. I'd be willing to bet you'll have a pretty hard time with even just 4 people. I did say the 'best' players anyway not all players. I can 99 some 12s and I'm 5'4 FFS remember? Just the 'best' players are, so far as I know, ALL in this height range, not 7/10 of them in this height range.

Yes I know, I have a degree in mathematics, I know how all this works too. Was just an observation  

My degree in statistics says that just bringing up 20 people with a 16:4 distribution in height is not going to be nearly enough to conclude your hypothesis true.  I forget my analyses techniques but that's probably just going to get you some retarded statement like "the hypothesis 'the very best ITG players' heights are not distributed the same as the average american' is not supported by any significant analytical results"

Because of the numbers you're trying to prove you'd probably need well into the 100s, maybe 1000s of players to confirm such a thing, and there just aren't that many players :p