Well, the way I was thinking, if we got the word out and became a larger community, there would be more motivation for Bill to get the machines, and we would not have to worry about spending our money that we need for probably more important things, which is a lot smarter than... spending our money for lower priorities, making the fundraiser idea seem less smart in comparison.

And now that you mentioned it, fund-raising may make us look more mature, and give people a better view of us.  However, it may also make us look desperate and pathetic (images of people waiting outside for PS3s and Wiis come to mind... Yuck), so I don't know if it would be a good idea.

I do agree with you though that we should be working to fix things down here, rather than spending money on ephemeral trips.

Fund-raising is only desperate if our execution of it makes it look that way.

For example, do we go "WELCOME TO PNWBEMANI GIVE US $5 PLZ THX LOL"?  No, of course not.  Just because someone has become or is interested in the community in no way 1) requires them to contribute to the community and 2) requires them to be approached immediately.

If the procedure is mature and orderly then, once again, people will WANT to give, because they will see it is a good, and not desperate, cause.  The cause can never be desperate, as we are not starving for food, we are not dying of malnutrition, we just want to have fun!  We should promote that we have fun together and these games are a large part of that, and wouldn't it be great if we could have even MORE games to have fun with?  You have to keep a positive and capable aura about the fundraising process, and BELIEVE that it is a GREAT way to support what we love to do, and that will make people want to give.  The idea of the pledge system is so that, once people pledge to give then you have the ability to remind them to give, because obviously they wanted to since they pledged and you're doing them a service by reminding them, as all professional groups would.

As for the bigger community, once again it's all circular.  A bigger community would be able to raise more money, but then raising money also advertises and helps to make our cause known, thus nurturing a bigger community.  I think we should aim for both, however in light of the fact that we obviously have limited resources, I propose fund-raising be a medium-to-long term goal (particularly a pledge drive) and tournaments and community awareness be a constant, short-term goal for the time being, then as member numbers increase we can prioritize fund-raising.

Sorry, I think you mistook at lot of what I had to say, so I'll paraphrase only for simplicity because you had a long post not trolling, I swear. :)



I agree that positive perspectives are important. But I (possibly fundamentally) disagree that realistic proposals are not necessary as well. I think that as a community the only thing we've proven is that there is a semblance of staying power which is nice, but has been proven time and time again not to be all that financially successful.


Sorry, I saw Tada mention it somewhere. He responded below as well. That portion was directed to the thread :)


Again, possible fundamental disagreement. As an arcade owner, keeping track of this would be a nightmare. I, from a business perspective, wouldn't want anything to do with a group of people possibly contributing some number of dollars at some point in the future. Then again, I am not Bill. But I have spoken with Bill and I think I have an OK idea as to what his thoughts are on the subject. Would love to be proven wrong :)


Oh good grief, it was a joke. I'm not telling anyone what to do with their money. Although, quite frankly, if an 18 year old is considering tossing 1k into a possible upgrade of an arcade machine, maybe I should :P I wasn't trying to belittle anyone, I made that as clear as I could given my resources.


I wish you good luck!


Again, good luck. But I really think this might be a case of asking for forgiveness being easier than asking for approval. Unless Bill welcomes the idea of having the community pitch in, you're wasting your time.

Alpha, I'm not targeting you directly, but when I say I'm play devils advocate- that is truly all I'm doing. I would love to see it happen, but I'm not what all is involved with making it a reality.

If I needed proof that the PNW community was like a RTS game, that's it right there.

In the short term though, we have to keep the people that we have now interested, or they could very well quit.  I myself am only playing ITG and a little DM right now at Acme; don't know how much longer R21 will stay fun for me.  IIDX I play almost exclusively at home.  There may be other people out there hanging by a thread.  We do have to keep the short term in mind too.

@Metroid:
Yes, I am well-aware of the Devil's Advocate.  You field questions for questions' sake, thus I do not find you against or for my views, you simply want to know more about them, and that's a GOOD thing.

And I didn't miss your jokes but I'm trying to cast a serious light on the thread here, plus this is the internetz so it's easy to misinterpret people; I get very serious about things so you catch me at a disadvantage when you field a joke in this setting (especially since I don't know you all that well).  Forgive me as I now forgive you ::handshakes and touching moments and whatnot:: Anyhow, let's not focus on that too much.

The proof to Bill would be long- not short-term, thus to respect the fundamental business perspective.

@Tada:
Since you are a player who is losing interest, perhaps you could help make us aware of how we would increase your interest?  Is a new mix the only way?  If so, I have to tell you honestly that we obviously cannot do that for you in the short-term.  However, if there are other things the community can provide you that we are immediately capable of at least working towards, let us know man.

EDIT: By the way I love RTSs, for the record =D

EDIT2: Even if fund-raising is medium-to-long term, that in no way means we can't discuss it now.

EDIT3: I'm gonna take a little break on this topic because I don't want to come across as overzealous.  Talk amongst yourselves.

I am losing interest in playing stuff at Acme; not interest in Bemani overall.  If I want to play IIDX though, I may as well play that at home, where it is much newer.  There are many other players who fall into this same boat; they don't go to arcades because they can play newer stuff at home.  People out there have quit the community, but still play Bemani, albeit at home, because the arcades can't keep up.

So yeah, newer stuff is probably the only way I would be interested in playing much other than ITG at Acme.  I don't even go once a week anymore.  Compare this to the 3-4 times I went to arcades a week when we had decent machines.  I definitely think this would happen again if we had a variety of machines to play, and that were upgraded.

Hm Tada makes a good point- then it becomes a matter of either newer machines or the actual community itself.
Personally, as someone who has the latest mixes and all ASC's- it makes little sense to spend more money on older machines. But I do go on occassion to see people and hang out. Which makes me think- what if you had a Bemani Party but charged admission as a donation of some sort? That might be an ok way for fundraising (new mixes, group setting, and raising money, party :D).

Blarg, can't even stay away for a few minutes ^_^;;;

So, Met, we're cool now then? Misunderstanding cleared up? Nice.

As for the bemani party, that was another idea I'd thought of but then got bogged down with the pledge fund-raising.  I think we should definitely do that.  I would readily supply my bemani resources to such a thing.

Problem there would be balancing cost functions-donations in order to equal a profit.  For example, where would it be? I assume for the first party we could at least have it at someone's house, thus minimizing overhead costs.  I can probably offer my own house, though I'd have to check with my housemate's first (and I'd need more details on the party first).

Yeah, we're fine. I'm actually an OK guy sometimes :)

Sorry, didn't mean to steal your idea. I sort of glossed this thread which is totally my fault. What I would forsee would be one person hosting which would be their donation if it were to happen. Yeah, there's overhead, but say hypothetically you invite 10 over and they each donate $20 and bring some chips/soda, you're ok to go. Doesn't work on short term, but long term it may be a way to see a steady increase? I'll be doing it once I get a house for sure.

I totally skimmed the thread after matt's realism post.  I figured any discussion after it would be going around in circles anyway.

I was talking with Davyn about this but if I make enough money in the next two ro three years and they bring IIDX over, I'm totally buying myself a machine.  Havnig a IIDX machine is worth more to me than a brand new car, and they cost the same.
It's that easy, really.  Well, not easy as in "anyone could do it," but the idea is simple -- if you want it, you work for it and pay for it, not try to use others' goodwill to your personal gain.

edit: haha although yes, I'm in tournaments for money, I'm all for the idea of fundraising events too -- just not as an idea to pay for single upgrades/games but more as a donation for the community as a whole - type deal.  Long winded sentence with awkward adjective phrase, sorry.

Oh, you didn't steal it, as I hadn't even mentioned it yet ^_^;;; it's probably good that we move onto another issue rather than hammer pledge fund-raising, as I don't think anyone is interested in that other than myself for the time being, and forcing pills down someone's throat doesn't make them more apt to swallowing it.

Ah, okay that sounds pretty fair.  Well, I think what I'll do is offer my house tentatively for one of these and in the meantime peeps who are interested can "sign on" so to speak, which I convince my housemates this is a good idea =P

EDIT:

Well, I don't think fund-raising is using people for your own personal gain but...to each their own.  I could raise money for a Drummania of my own over a couple of years but I could probably do it while also helping the community, especially if it was through pledge fund-raising, bemani parties, or whatnot (not saying you aren't helping nor won't help the community through your methods, just saying).  

Also, do you have any ideas what you would rather the money raised through tournament fund-raising go towards?  "donation for the community as a whole - type deal" doesn't give me any clear ideas of what you have in mind.

The only thing I can think of really is to hand the money to Bill to use at his discretion, preferably towards doing something with his business.

We already have been having the Bring Your Own Bemani series of gatherings, but it may have been hard to see those since all those threads are back at ITGFreak.  I was already planning to hold the next one at my place, if no one else stepped up.

People might not be willing to pay a fee to get in, or may not be able to afford the fee.  The community gatherings should work strictly on expanding and uniting the community, not raising money.  We don't want to bar people just because they don't want to pay money.  Getting money from admissions would actually be only good for the short-term.  Getting more members is better in the long-term.  This is coming from someone who has hosted two of these events in the past, even, so it's not just me not wanting to pay which is making me say this.

In an earlier revision of this post, I suggested the fee would be optional, but that would be pretty redundant, since they could just put the same amount in a pledge.



This is the stupidest idea I have seen in this thread thus far.  I can guarantee you I would donate zilch if that is what we're going to do.  I am not donating a cent unless I know it's going towards something I want.

I just brought that up because I'd rather support Bill for all he's done than to get myself a gift with the money.  Seriously, if I had a lot of money, I'd contribute to Masterman Vending.  Not invest, but contribute.

So what do you have in mind then?  I guess you're thinking along the lines of maybe uh... drumsticks to be used by us on DM?  I'm not saying you have specifically that in mind, but something like it?

I have the same ideas I have always had: Expanding the community, and possibly fundraising with a goal in mind.  I just would not be up for fundraising if we did not have anything to strive for.  "We're fundraising in order to get a Pop 'n FEVER!" is just so much more motivating than "We're raising money to give to Bill to do whatever the hell he wants with it" and knowing it will probably go towards a crappy hunting game if that's the case.

Most of us are already giving money to Bill to use at his discretion with our regular arcade visits.

And people call me pessimistic :P If people aren't willing to donate to a cause that benefits them immediately as well as in the future, then you should scrap the whole idea altogether.

I think I liked you better when you were 13.

Well, like I said, not all of us can afford the same amount of donation.  If someone finds the boards, but cannot foot the entry fee, we may have cost ourselves a potential member.  Perhaps the happy medium is to have a suggested donation.  Anyone who wants to support the community and pay the $20 or whatever, can, and those who don't want to or can't won't be forbidden from entering because they don't/can't pay.



Well, we never had to worry about affording upgrades or discuss schemes like this when I was 13.  My posts would be much the same way if we did have to.  I really have not changed that much, have I?

Err, I said the BYOB- not the boards. Maybe you misread? I never said locking out members...? The BYOB would simply be by donation only, as I saw it. Just an idea.

I was more referring to your tone in general. It's much too serious all of the time. And yeah, we had these discussions back then too. (Illusionz had a lot more leeway)

Edit: Yeah, you're kind of a dick on the boards. ::shrug:: Of course, this takes one to know one. :)

even a $5 entry would be better than nothing and that's really nothing to spend. especially if you don't know the people and they could end up just stealing shit from your house. i remember lan parties around seattle are like $20 to get in, though of course you spike their power usage pretty bad at each one so it mostly covers the electric bill.

We would be locking out anyone who is not willing to pay $20 to get into a gathering.  More people would be open to coming if it was free, or optional to pay the fee.  That's my point.



I guess that's just the difference between me being an adolescent and me being a young adult.  But unless you can show me how I was different, I really see no difference between my posts now and posts then.

You once again completely miss the word "donation" which means "optional."
Also, "More people would be open to playing new bemani at their arcade if it was free, or optional to pay the fee." My how things work.


That's cool. I mean, don't take my outside viewpoint for anything. You can wear your blinders as long as you'd like, I'm not quite sure I care to prove to you anything :)

I understand now... Now I have nothing else to say on this matter.



I can't really force myself to act a certain way.  I always got the idea that people thought I was just too immature when I was younger, so I guess I worked to correct that.  You'll just have to accept the way I am now.  We should probably continue this portion somewhere else, as it is pretty off-topic.

Nice edit. Get the last word and then suggest a move. :)

In a topic related message, PNM seems popular, IIDX of course, but it sounds like PNM or DM might be the most feasible to upgrade cost-wise since IIDX will require new hardware. I wonder which brings in more- ACME or Narrows when it comes to Bemani seeing as how Narrows has the 10th upgrades.

Which would you like to see?

popn 9 and up need new hardware ;_;
but i would absolutely like to see a popn machine more than a dm upgrade. but i wouldnt be unhappy with some nice V3 goin' on of course.

Right, but the Popn cabs are as cheap as some upgrades for the other games :)
Does DM need new hardware? I thought it did around 10th or something? V3 is a devastating mix of old and new. Easily the best mix so far. (although, I'm still very partial to 5th)