oh yeah that's right, cheap fever machines. i want to play b-kun song again *_*
yeah V and up (maybe sooner) need new hardware. bemanips2 i think. and hell yeah v3 is the best. it has S.F.M.

I think a Pop 'n FEVER would be our best first target, too.  More types of Bemani is always good, and PNM is pretty newbie-friendly.  I would not play IZ's old Pop 'n if we got that, though.  Already played it to death.

i am going to acme tonight

will probably only play Supernova and Drummania though

(Basing this off the ones I've played, which were Gosha's ones at the first Digital Storm [the travel, postcard mix] and IZ's old one)
Pop'n has the WORST newbie friendly interface. The menus were not in any English, song titles are mass confusing and I really had no clue what song I was playing. There's 9 buttons... which one do you press when you first start out? you have no clue! There isn't English instructions next to the buttons telling you which ones to press in the game... just a complete newbie mess. It took me 3 times to get to songs I could pass when I played it for the first time at IZ a few years ago.

At least IIDX has "LIGHT" (and Beginner), DM has Light (and beginner), Pop'n was just horrible.

I tried playing Pop'n on an ASC, at the first Digital Storm (and of course doing horrible), and I remember Jerrad saying, "What are you doing?". I was pretty sad about that >=(

haha, i've been playing pop'n for a while now and i still have no clue (for the most part) of what i'm doing in the menus :S
oh yeah, i went to acme tonight... and my new card doesn't work so tony's cool about it and is taking a look to see whats wrong =D i suck at getting usb flash drives

popn isnt that hard but it definately isnt noob friendly either :/

navigating popn is really easy though... dunno whats wrong with you guys lol

At this point I will say that although I would like a GFDM mix or upgrade to be a goal in the future (obviously), I am willing to go forward with fund-raising (by any means) in the pursuit of a Pop'N cabinet as the first goal.

One of my three housemates has approved the use of premises for a bemani party, btw (still have to ask the other two).  Although Tada had said he was planning on doing the party at his place possibly?  I'm in East Kent so I may be out of the way too.  I don't know how much space you guys think you need and whatnot, but the first floor of my house is pretty big, I think it could support enough people.

Haha, about the newbie friendly comment, I totally disagree.

popn and IIDX are like the WORST when it comes to newbie friendliness in terms of gameplay.  The initial learning curve is way too high.  DDR is probably the easiest, followed by DM.

I'm basing this all off of my first time playing these games.  I thought popn was a multiplayer game.

I don't care what fundraising goes to and I'll contribute as long as it's a common goal that I'd also like to achieve.

Wow!  What a thread going on here.  I would love to get some updated toys for all of you.  Metroids and others business sense is amazing sometimes, totally dead on.  The BM at Acme will likely never recoup it's investment, especially as weekly grosses have dropped to the 60.00 range.  I am honored that you all want to raise money for upgrades.  However, I could never accept any money from you people.  That would just not feel right.  We would have to track who owns what percentage, as I am not good at accepting gifts.  Maybe the better idea is to keep up the good ideas to create more Bemani interest, making new purchases more viable.  If they would cover their costs, even without a margin, I would have already stocked Narrows and Acme with every imaginable upgraded Bemani.  
I have been searching for cost effective options.  Our connections in Japan all know what is on our shopping list if it can be found at a cost effective price.
BM hardware system
PNM hardware system (no problem finding a PNM cabinet here in the states to install said hardware)
DM/GF hardware system

Probably the DM/GF system would be the most cost effective based on the play level now.  But at full retail price, would never recoup their investment.  But, with these hardware systems getting a little older, they should start coming available on the used market hopefully at a more affordable level.  That is what I am dreaming of, anyway.  

Seriously people, I am very flattered with all your fund raising ideas, and appreciate the kind gestures.  This is another example of why I think so much of all you people.  At the trade shows, I have been known to brag about the superior group of young people we have in our arcades here in Washington.  You all rock, and I appreciate you all.  this is why I will continue to work on finding cost effective Bemani to keep our community up and running.

Shame on the manufacturers.  Bemani could be affordable if this stuff was not priced so high.  It is only basically a PS2 in the new DM/GF series.  With a huge price tag.  They can better afford the upgrade costs in Japan.  The price per play, hence weekly gross revenues are much higher for them in Japan.  Chris, I know you just returned form there.  Is the going play price still 200 yen per game?  That would equate to around 1.60-1.70 per game play charge in US currency.  Too high for this market, but they seem to line up to play in Japan.

I remember back when the Asian community here really helped us jump start the Bemani community.  But they sure lost interest quickly, and went on to other things, like Initial D.

By the way, this years best earning game release will be Intitial D 4.  NOT an upgrade for the older ID cabinets.  We are being forced to buy new cabinets with the new hardware system.  But it will be awesome.  32" plasma monitors, and will tied to a world wide ranking system, with real time race competitions through a DSL line.  Look for the first cabinets in a few months, Acme and Narrows.

 I sure wish bemani games had the earning power of something like ID.  Staying on the upgrade path would be easy if that were the case.  But you all are on the right track with promoting the community.

Will be watching for a possible upcoming IZ auction to pick up some "wood" for future hardware.  

Thanks all, for your love and support.  You are all awesome!

Metroid: Narrows is a bit better for bemani numbers.  But you already knew that.  :-)

wow bill... you are cool :O

last night i seen a few newer people at acme and they seem cool.... i wonder if they would join

Going off of both of you:

Pop 'n has 5-Line, where you use only the middle five, and the charts are easier overall.  It is an analog to the other "Light" modes.  I have seen the song levels as low as a 2 there.  

Also, I had zero Japanese reading ability when I first played Pop 'n at IZ (could not even read hiragana or katakana), and I found my way just fine around the menus.  Sure, someone had to show me how to get to Anothers and to turn on high speed, but what newbies are going to need that?  It only took me a few games to at least pass the easiest songs on normal mode.  The series has gotten more English-friendly since then, too.  Now you can pick from song titles and previews instead of a genre name in katakana and your opponent character (the latter is how I used to remember songs).

EDIT: While writing the paragraph, I realized that we could show people (probably people in our community who are sampling new games) how to get around the menus, set hi-speeds, etc. if they are getting lost.

Another edit: Pop 'n has pretty wide timing windows too, which is also beginner-friendly.

i'm going to be at acme all day today what's weird is i actually don't want to go... but i'm getting kicked out of the house for the day

So it looks like our fundraising ideas are out, then.

I really hope that Bill doesn't take the $60.00/week as a measurement for what a newer Bemani would bring in.  The reason I and others are not playing (a lot of) IIDX at Acme is that all of us have IIDX setups at home and can play much newer versions than at Acme.  I know I alone would probably put $15-$20 a week into a new game if we got one, and others would do likewise.  I would probably be showing up multiple times a week again, rather than the not even once a week I'm managing now.

My interest in music games at Acme is hanging by a thread.  The only thing that keeps me going is ITG.  DM8 to an extent, but we've been able to play that for the last forever.  Once that wears thin for me, I really won't have any reason to go, and will become another person who only plays Bemani at home.

I'm sure bill knows that newer bemani (in this case, IIDX) would bring more than $60/wk in... suppose it brought in 5 times as much, $300.
Part of it goes to ACME (if at acme).  Part of it goes to maintenance.  That DD machine on coin op express was $15000.  That's 50 weeks IF IT COST NOTHING TO MAINTAIN/OPERATE.  That probably starts to give an idea of why we don't get upgrades; it just simply costs way too much.

That's for a new machine.  A IIDX upgrade does not near as much as a new machine, since as Tony said, it would be really illogical to buy an upgrade if a new machine is only a little more.  Pop 'n costs half as much as that price, and a DM upgrade kit probably costs even less.

And, we aren't getting upgrades because as Kevin said he heard from Bill, the community is too small.  We need to focus on expanding.  If everyone just thinks like you, nothing's going to happen.  But if there's a chance that we can expand the community (we know there are people out there) and get newer machines, i'm all for it.

Apparently new machines are easier to find than upgrades for 14.  Maybe DD won't be as hard with new hardware for 14, people should start dumping them.  Hell, the software alone for HS was like $2, 300 on Ebay.  It's the damn hardware that costs a fortune used.

The new hardware is only a couple thousand from what Tony said.  Once again, if the new hardware cost almost as much as a new machine, that would be pretty illogical.

@Bill:
RE: Cost per play of bemani in Japan.

Well, you are somewhat correct.  In a big city like Tokyo or Osaka, it's common to see 200 yen as the going rate for a game of the latest bemani.  But actually, where I lived, in Okayama, there were many arcades where 100 yen was charged (about $.80).  Part of this is because bemani does almost as well even in middle-sized cities like Okayama (i.e. 24/7 someone is on the machine), and in Osaka and Tokyo operation/rent costs are higher so that may be partly why the cost per play is higher.

But yes, 200yen/play is a good broad estimate, but if you look around there's almost always a "hangout" arcade where all the local good players go, and it's usually only 100 yen there.

Part of the reason why Japanese are fine with spending 100 or 200 yen on a play, other than 75 yen or so, is because they have coins that equal 100 or 200 yen.  Nobody in America carries silver dollars around with them, and the size and heft of those coins would make them difficult to design coin slots for.  The quarter is kind of an outdated currency for arcades I think =P when you put 3 quarters into that DM machine, you think "Hey I just put 3 units of currency in there."  When you put that hyaku-en piece in the DM in Japan, you think "I only put 1 unit of currency in there! Sweet!"  But yeah I might be reading too much into it, but I've always felt this way.  Also, to myself who is used to paying $.75/bemani play (thanks to your arcades ^_~) I figured $.80/100 yen wasn't any really ramp up.

--
Also, a further inquiry to Bill,
what if the community were able to procure a machine, and figure out a way to divvy up ownership of it; would you be comfortable hosting that machine at one of the arcades in the area (most likely ACME) even if you don't have full ownership of it?



I think Bill knows that new mixes bring increased revenues, but those increased revenues are so short-term that they cannot recoup the cost of the machine.  And then people start to complain that the machine is a shitty mix or that this other mix is better (I recall when DM8 came out lots of people came to Narrows but it was only for 2 months or so, and even then lots of people were complaining that 5th mix was better).  Also Tada, if we get a new mix will that really increase your interest in music games?  I have to be honest, yes the new mixes (at least of GF/DM) bring better elements, but lots of those elements (battle mode, unlocks, scorekeeping) won't be available to us here in the States.  It's basically just lots more songs, but no new mechanics.  Are you getting bored of the songs or the mechanics of bemani?  Because if it's the mechanics, I can't promise that GF/DMV3 brings anything new there (in fact, no it certainly does not, except for those freeze arrows...).

Also, I wouldn't say our fund-raising ideas are shot down, we just are more aware of Bill's stance on them.  If the community is enlarged and if we can prove our capability in fund-raising, I think we can still strike a deal.  But we'll see how Bill responds to my latest inquiry.

No mention of the fact that almost everything costs more there?  That could be it too.  From what I heard from my Japanese professor, most things cost about 3-4x more.  Games costing only 100 yen would make them a bargain by comparison.  Even 200 yen/$1.70 is only 70% more, which is still cheap compared to everything else being 200% more.

I do think the quarter is outdated too for arcades, and card systems like IZ had and GW has make spending money a lot easier in countries where we don't have the luxury of decently-valued coins.  Do you think anyone would like putting 14 quarters into a game at GW?  Don't think so.  Sure, GW is expensive, but inflation's going to make other places the same eventually.  Also, carrying around much more than $5.00 in quarters in a pocket can be a bit of a hassle.

Depends on where you live.  Yes Tokyo is an expensive city, but if you're smart and know where to shop there are cheaper places, as there are in any city.  Plus there is great mass transit that is cheap and can get you to other areas very quickly/cheaply, so it helps alleviate cost of living.

In Okayama I have to be honest, it was NOT expensive to live there if you knew how to save money; namely to bike everywhere, go to the local "D-O" (kind of like a CostCo but with food only), play outside, etc. etc.  

Yes, cost of living in Japan can be high, but that certainly doesn't apply to everywhere, and I think it doesn't fully take into consideration the money Japanese save by being smart consumers and using mass transit (which obviously a lot of them do).

You might say "well Okayama isn't like Tokyo".  That's true, but Tokyo isn't like Okayama.  I didn't live in Tokyo, I lived in Okayama and visited Tokyo; but I don't think we should discount Okayama just because it isn't Tokyo; it's still a Japanese city of reputable size =P

But anyhow, I think I missed your point a bit.  Your point is bemani is cheap compared to other things in Japan.  Well I don't know; I can get a burger meal at Carl's Jr. for $5.50 and play bemani at Narrows for $.75.  In Okayama I could get a huge bento (boxed lunch) for 550yen (<$5) which had more and better food than any fast food store around here, and I could play bemani at the local Fair Lanes arcade for 100 yen ($.80)  And that arcade ALWAYS got new bemani AS SOON AS it came out, so obviously they were charging a sufficient amount of money, and people were paying it.

Not everything costs 3-4x more in Japan.  In fact, if you're talking things like food, the price is practically identical.

It's not that bemani is relatively cheap -- it's that Japanese people spend little money on other things.  It was common for me to go to an arcade and spend $50, $100 even.  Arcades over there are different things than they are over here, I would never dream of hanging out all day at and spending a $100 over here.

How much different are they in that you would want to spend that much over in those arcades?

I dunno; but my perspective was I lived for a year in a half and was working in Japan, so I had to budget myself.  I never spent $50-100 a day but I agree that it was common for other Japanese arcade-goers to do that, although admittedly I seldom saw Bemani-players spending that much.  Well I did know this one guy who called himself Orange-san that played Drummania but wasted all of his money on Counterstrike NEO and a Evangelion pachinko machine, heh.

To answer Jonathan's question, a Japanese arcade has many other games than just bemani (obviously) but the ones that attract players from almost any genre are the following:

UFO catchers/crane games/100 yen and up per game, and you usually end up spending 1000 yen or more in order to get something (or less if you're really good)
Purikura/print club/photo-taking and doctoring machines, depending on the amount of people in the photos, 300-600 yen or so
Pachinko, this thing sucks your life as quickly as it sucks your cash.  Its appetite is insatiable

And the best
Counterstrike NEO
Okay okay, I'm joking, that was just for the shooter game fanatics, but I just thought this game was ridiculous (Japanese-ized Counterstrike 1.6 engine, pay 200 yen and play for 5 minutes! A steal  :roll: )

I know what you mean... my uncle used to have one of these things in his basement.  So glad I didn't have to pay any $.

I am probably going to Japan sometime this spring/summer (most likely summer)... I'll let you guys know what it's like over there from my perspective.  Hopefully I'll be able to live there someday (I have reasons outside of Bemani too; hell, even outside video games).  I really am working to make it happen.  It's not just an "it would be cool if it happened" thing like it had been up until last year; this is looking more reasonable every day.  The way things go for me, I'll probably be stuck here forever, though.